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German Courts Rule Phone Nav Units Illegal
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alix776
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 9:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swing wrote:
Can any German speaking people read the original article, and provide a better translation than Google...? I'm


Its jen here Wink


Mobile phone ban at the tax counts counts also in utilization as a Navi the mobile phone ban at the tax also if the telephone is used as a navigation device. The concept of the use latch all serve functions with on, divided the federal court (OLG) Cologne in a decision published today with. If the driver would receive or would hold the device for that, he violates 23 sec. paragraph. 1 a of the traffic order.

That Bonn district court had convicted a driver to a fine of 70 Euro, who had adjusted the navigation aid of the mobile phone during the trip. The OLG rejected its right trouble against the judgment.

The interpretation of the direction had been most recently object of more numerous upper judicial decisions. After that latch the concept of the use all serve functions on, is named it in the decision establishment. Next to the conversation, the sending of short messages, the preparation of a conversation and the monitoring of a signal tone with the device belongs in addition at the ear. In addition however also the utilization of a mobile phone makes after some decisions under that as an instrument to the storage, processing and representation of data.

"Is a device for telephoning suited and determines, should it on the other hand without meaning be, if it over further functions orders, for through it would become its characteristic as a mobile phone does not remove", is named it in the establishment. Differently it would behave after previous jurisdiction if a mobile phone in the vehicle discarded or transferred solely or only to the ear warmth used becomes
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robertn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without knowing the details, I would guess this is another one of those laws that has not kept up with technology. Until recently (in legal terms) a phone could make phone calls, and not much else.

The courts job is to administer the law as written, not write (or rewrite) the law. They have some flexibilty interpreting the law, but not enough to change "can not" to "sometimes".

If you have a "car navigator" that can also make phone calls, rather than a phone that can navigate, is it still illegal to use it? - i.e. what is the legal definition of a "mobile phone" in German law?
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gardenshed
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:
gardenshed wrote:
going on from the very good point Dennis makes

Eh? Exclamation Question Idea Confused
sorry with all the names starting with 'D's and
Lenkrad, Steuer, totally confusing if you ask me!!!!
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hailstorm
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It looks to me from the broken translation above that what was illegal was adjusting the sav nav on the phone while in the middle of driving. I don't think there would be any problem using the sat nav on the phone as long as you don't touch it during the trip.

It doesn't like an outright ban on the device. I would expect there wouldn't be a problem if you pull over your car and stop to adjust the route on the device.

Much the same with mobile phones in the UK. You can't use them whilst driving but you can park your car and use one ok.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ignore the translation above, the story has been checked by one of our native German speaking editors and it is a total ban on the use of a phone for whatever purpose whilst driving!
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LeBigmac
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. the use of any phone in your HAND while driving is not allowed.
it doesnt matter what additional function the phone has .....

2. in germany like in the UK the use of the phone via bluetooth or fixed installation is allowed

the questions that are unanswered are:

1.can I use a phone with GPS if I am connected via bluetooth or if its a fixed installation....

the article also mentioned the coment by the court, "its not allowed due to the fact you use a hand for something else then steering"
this now brings up the question of
2. there are so many otherthing you can do while driving with hands which is allowed (eating, smoking, radio, touching your partner...), so why are they not getting ruled out.

which somehow makes this now officially written down judgement completly useless.
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dchbrown
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeBigmac wrote:
the questions that are unanswered are:

2. there are so many otherthing you can do while driving with hands which is allowed (eating, smoking, radio, touching your partner...), so why are they not getting ruled out.


This has always been covered by "Driving Without Due Care and Attention" in the UK, the difference is that they decided that Phones were a specific risk and created a law to combat their use behind the wheel.
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fluffytails
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 6:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A German contributor on motorhomefacts.com summed the position as follows---


In Germany it is forbidden to use a mobile phone while driving a vehicle, if one holds the phone in hand. Now "using" a mobile phone does not only mean making a phone call, it also encompasses all other uses like sending/receiving SMS, entering data, or as in this case: using it for navigation.

You are perfectly legal to use your mobile phone, however, if you do not hold it in your hand! So phoning with a handsfree set is OK.
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

fluffytails wrote:
You are perfectly legal to use your mobile phone, however, if you do not hold it in your hand! So phoning with a handsfree set is OK.


how about using a stylus? that way, techincally, you're not actually TOUCHING the phone Shocked Shocked

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SimonCatlin
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 12:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just to clarify the French Hi-Viz Law. It must be in the body of the passenger compartment so that it can be put on prior to getting out of the car. It cannot be stowed in the boot (trunk for the USA) for example.

You only need one, which makes a mockery of the other passengers in the car, who are obviously expendable. (Edited to correct spelling mistake)
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alix776
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 7:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

jen did the above translation and posted it the main one is on the main page is the one to look at.

though i am wondering where this leaves o2 and t-mobile germany which supply phones with sat nav apps as part of the package. an official response from them would make intersting reading. also it does beg the question about pna's as they can also be used to control a mobile phone and also for the rest of europe, will other countries follow suit

i think its crazy in an hgv you can have a laptop in the windscreen running a nav app but you cant use a phone for navigation Question Question Question Question

i think interesting times are ahead for navigation whilst driving laws some will be stupid some will be reasonable. i fear the majority will be stupid
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mostdom
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 9:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LeBigmac wrote:
2. there are so many otherthing you can do while driving with hands which is allowed (eating, smoking, radio, touching your partner...), so why are they not getting ruled out.


You can be prosecuted for all of those things. I know of one case where a person was done for eating a mars bar!

Simple truth is, if you have an accident and plod can prove you were doing anything other than just driving you WILL be done for without due care, except touching your partner in which case you'll be done for indecency as well.
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alanwalne
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SimonCatlin wrote:
Just to clarify the French Hi-Viz Law. It must be in the body of the passenger compartment so that it can be put on prior to getting out of the car. It cannot be stowed in the boot (trunk for the USA) for example.

You only need one, which makes a mockery of the other passengers in the car, who are obviously expendable. (Edited to correct spelling mistake)


I was told that all passengers who are standing on the roadside must have one. Babes in arms do not need one, but everyone else does.
Only one needs to be kept in the car as the driver (or passenger wearing a vest) could get any others from the boot.
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Kar98
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PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 8:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

swing wrote:
Can any German speaking people read the original article, and provide a better translation than Google...?


Hell, I _AM_ German, and the article doesn't make any sense to me. That's what 356 comments under the article -pretty much all of them by native Germans- are all about, mostly.
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grantp
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PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taking into account the potential confusing around this at the moment ...

If they are trying to ban making phone calls when driving a vehicle ...

(which is I think Nanny's intention in the UK as well though I am not sure we have yet seen any proper research as to the additional dangers that phone use creates over an above other 'distractions' when driving)


... then what about using Sat Nav devices that have the capability of offering hands free phone services? They could easily be considered to be phones in essence. That they don't have a phone connected at the time might be difficult to prove, especially if traffic info services are employed.

In general I am not in favour of using a phone when driving but very very occasionally it makes sense, notably if the phone is in use in the context of the current journey - arrangements and directions for example and the conversation kept brief.

But then I am not a great multi-tasker. Some people are. This is not a one size fits all situation though from a legal point of view it has to be one.

The thing is that laws are nearly always established as knee-jerk reactions to 'obvious' problems which often are not obvious if they are researched. Road usage laws in particular fall into that category more often than not.

Carrying spare bulbs is, in modern times, a classic example of something that has been overtaken by the passage of time. And the commercial intuitions of the manufacturers.

Hi-Viz jackets? If France is still covered with sunflower farms I would have thought they would most likely act as camouflage! Still, I guess a Hi-Viz jacket will at least make everyone look the same - Les Flics, the travellers, the road sweepers and anyone subject to Health and Safety ate work - though surely that will make them all just part of the scenery. won't it?

As for triangles - I would have thought that flashing hazard lights and decent headlight systems made those obsolete (other than in the rare case of complete electrical failure) years ago.

Still, in countries where the law applies it offers an extra opportunity for raising cash for the local cop shop and a good excuse to rummage around the car to see what else might be ''taxable'.

What next I wonder? A law that bans cyclists from listening to their iPods when riding?


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