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MaFt Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15219 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:47 pm Post subject: |
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i would say that this is where they went in:
http://MaFt.co.uk/misc/pgpsw/lake.png
and if you look further east you can see that there IS a road there but it's submerged - i wonder if this is one of those 'seasonal' roads that depends on the volume of water in there? like the road to Holy Island?
http://MaFt.co.uk/misc/pgpsw/lake2.png
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Darren Frequent Visitor
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 4:50 pm Post subject: |
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Or it's a road that was consumed by the reservoir? _________________ Darren Griffin |
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MaFt Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15219 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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Darren wrote: | Or it's a road that was consumed by the reservoir? |
just reading the Guardian report:
Quote: | Pictures of the scene show the old road running on a slight downhill slope straight into the reservoir, which is the biggest in the country.
There was no explanation of why the GPS still showed the road as usable. La Serena reservoir, which stores water from the Zújar river, was built in 1989. |
implies the road used to exist but they stopped when they built the reservoir.
in this instance, even if the drivers had checked on google maps then the road looks totally feasible as the reservoir is not shown on that part. it's only when you switch to satellite view that you see how big the reservoir really is!
the next question, i suppose, is whether there are plenty of warning signs saying 'no through road' or similar leading up to it that could have given them some warning. unfortunately there's no StreetView in the area... |
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Guivre46 Frequent Visitor
Joined: Apr 14, 2010 Posts: 1262 Location: West London
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:36 pm Post subject: |
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The Telegraph report says the satnav did not have an up-to-date map and did not show the reservoir. Both men were from Senegal, so presumably would not have 'local' knowledge. Still not clear whether there were warning signs on the road or not. From the google map the road looks clear and in reasonable condition? A newer map version would have saved them. Makes me reconsider my criticism of TT's frequent map updates, even though most show little change - some changes are crucial. Though I suppose you could ask how long the reservoir would be there before teleatlas included it? _________________ Mike R [aka Wyvern46]
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Andy_P Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 5:45 pm Post subject: |
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I still can't see how they couldn't stop in time. It's not like there was a sudden drop into fifty feet of water...
From the pictures it looks as if the road is still there under the water, therefore the depth of water must increase pretty gently.
EDIT: Sorry, I take it all back, I've just seen Darren's picture of the car on the ramp and it does look a bit steep!
EDIT2 - I take back my taking back if mostdom's right about it just being where they pulled the car out rather then the road they went in from. |
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Andy_P Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 6:09 pm Post subject: |
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The Google directions that mostdom showed are using TeleAtlas mapping, so if there is blame to be spread around, some should be headed in their direction.
TomToms and Google Maps are both going to be suggesting the same route if it's wrong on the TA database.
MS/"Bing" maps use Navteq, and their directions recommend a route which crosses the lake at a much narrower point some way further south. I would assume Garmin would be using Navteq mapping for that area too, so putting their picture on the Sun article is definitely a bit unfortunate. |
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Guivre46 Frequent Visitor
Joined: Apr 14, 2010 Posts: 1262 Location: West London
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 8:51 pm Post subject: |
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Has anyone looked at the 855 map to see if the reservoir is shown, and if the route is still offered as viable? _________________ Mike R [aka Wyvern46]
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MaFt Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15219 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 10:37 pm Post subject: |
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Guivre46 wrote: | Has anyone looked at the 855 map to see if the reservoir is shown, and if the route is still offered as viable? |
38.81023,-5.06222
shows it exactly the same as google maps does... i.e. as a 'river' with roads crossing them.
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Guivre46 Frequent Visitor
Joined: Apr 14, 2010 Posts: 1262 Location: West London
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Posted: Tue Oct 05, 2010 11:45 pm Post subject: |
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I've reconsidered my reconsideration of TT's quarterly issuing of map updates. Not amending a change as major as this ie life threatening is beyond incompetent. A lack of respect for the well-being of your customers, to whom you proclaim you are offering a safer travel experience. Though of course there is nothing that says a TT was in use in this particular incident. _________________ Mike R [aka Wyvern46]
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Skippy Pocket GPS Verifier
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 12:57 am Post subject: |
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Darren wrote: | Or it's a road that was consumed by the reservoir? |
Flooded road by the looks of it in Google Earth.
A straight line approach so they may have been travelling at open road speed.
It looks like that road is long since submerged (you can see the road in Google Earth) but TeleAtlas maps are out of date.
Unfair of "The Sun" to use a picture of a Garmin - the Navteq maps haven't had that road for years.
Perhaps they will put up a warning barrier and sign if there isn't one already.... _________________ Gone fishing! |
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Darren Frequent Visitor
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 7:35 am Post subject: |
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Guivre46 wrote: | I've reconsidered my reconsideration of TT's quarterly issuing of map updates. Not amending a change as major as this ie life threatening is beyond incompetent. |
Hardly, I'd be blaming the local authorities. Why would you not fence off or otherwise bar a road that goes straight into a reservoir?
Satnav's are not nor will they ever be definitive maps. _________________ Darren Griffin |
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mostdom Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jul 10, 2006 Posts: 1964 Location: Surrey, UK.
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:28 am Post subject: |
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Darren wrote: | Satnav's are not nor will they ever be definitive maps. |
Agree! As I mentioned earlier, there were a number of possible influences that conspired against the driver resulting in this terrible accident and while the satnav did play it's part, it is not entirely to blame.
You could say it started with the contractors and planners for the dam not informing the relevant authorites about changing the local road layouts, counsils for updating signs and placing warnings and barriers, Ordenance surveys (if they have that sort of thing, which I'm sure they do) not passing on the changes, mapping companies who do have the ability to survey local roads, it being dark, and driver for blindly following the satnav.
And I think you could say in that order too! _________________ Dom
HERE LIES PND May it rest in peace.
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Guivre46 Frequent Visitor
Joined: Apr 14, 2010 Posts: 1262 Location: West London
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 8:46 am Post subject: |
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Darren wrote: | Hardly, I'd be blaming the local authorities. Why would you not fence off or otherwise bar a road that goes straight into a reservoir?
Satnav's are not nor will they ever be definitive maps. |
I agree that the local authorities had the prime responsibility for dealing with a dangerous road. But I was shocked that such a major change, that seems to have been around several years, is not correctly mapped. _________________ Mike R [aka Wyvern46]
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mostdom Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jul 10, 2006 Posts: 1964 Location: Surrey, UK.
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:07 am Post subject: |
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Just compared the google maps to Bing and MotionX terrain and they are upto date???
I even check the latest navigon maps and they don't show that road anymore.
Does anyone know who google use for mapping info? _________________ Dom
HERE LIES PND May it rest in peace.
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Darren Frequent Visitor
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Wed Oct 06, 2010 9:11 am Post subject: |
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mostdom wrote: | Does anyone know who google use for mapping info? |
Tele Atlas. _________________ Darren Griffin |
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