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Joined: Feb 27, 2006 Posts: 14892 Location: Keynsham
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 10:59 am Post subject:
I haven't seen it recently, so perhaps it has been discontinued, but on the A30 in North Devon, they used to have large signs stating the different speed limits for different vehicle classes, so you'd have a big sign saying 2 or 3 different speed limits. It was repeated at several miles intervals. _________________ Dennis
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 11:07 am Post subject:
Skippy wrote:
I don't think it's dumbing down. Let's say there's a route with a low/weak bridge that you've driven thousands of times. One day you drive a different vehicle and take the route you've always done without realising the danger of the different vehicle.
Surely, the GPS is less likely to know of this change than the humanoid at the wheel
Skippy wrote:
The other thing is that people aren't always 100% certain what the sign means. A significant number of drivers don't realise that the speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70 MPH for example.
...and these people pass their driving test? _________________ Andy
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Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:50 pm Post subject:
bmuskett wrote:
The database IS providing the correct information to all users, but some users need to interpret it differently depending on what they are driving and what device they are using.
Before we get too far away from the original point strumble was making, I think we need to emphasise that (I think) his point was that on SOME brands, it DOESN'T provide the correct information to all users.
Makes like TomTom show every camera position, and show you a sign that you can interpret, just like a road sign.
But Garmin and maybe others ONLY trigger an alert if you are going over a certain speed, so if your legal speed is lower than the "normal" speed limit, you will get NO warning of a camera at all.
Joined: Nov 16, 2004 Posts: 2145 Location: Midlands, UK
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 12:59 pm Post subject:
bmuskett wrote:
some users need to interpret it differently depending on what they are driving and what device they are using.
That's exactly why I suggested having a General Notice on the download pages just to inform them of the restrictions of the current database.
Never said the database needs to be changed.
bmuskett wrote:
Is anyone complaining to TomTom saying their speed camera database doesn't reflect different vehicle speed limits? Is anyone complaining to Garmin saying that the over speed warning doesn't reflect all vehicle speed limits? Stop trying to blame someone else, YOU are driving. And if you are relying on a tool to help you with that you should understand how it works and not follow it blindly.
What has THIS database got to do with TomTom or Garmin. The information they provide is their business, nothing to do with the information provided by PGPSW. We are discussing the database at PGPSW.
bmuskett wrote:
It's YOUR responsibility what you do with the information and to know the limitations of your vehicle.
Yes it is the driver’s responsibility to know, but what's the use if you do not get the whole picture.
To repeat myself, a General Notice would be very helpful to many users.
This does not require any change to the data for the compilers (or any extra formats created), just a small but significant piece of information to the different users to let them understand how the data may work for them.
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject:
Pocketgps wrote:
To repeat myself, a General Notice would be very helpful to many users.
This does not require any change to the data for the compilers (or any extra formats created), just a small but significant piece of information to the different users to let them understand how the data may work for them.
Whilst I have no particular issue with such a notice, as has been pointed out to us and has been witnessed on many occasions, users rarely bother reading such notices. If anything, I believe such a warning will cause more issues for us than no warning at all.
This thread raises an issue and suggests we are bound to resolve it but fails entirely to justify the need. Were we to make changes we have no way of knowing how many users actually desire it let alone would benefit from it.
We cannot cater for every possibly usage scenario, we know that the system is complex enough as it is and a line has to be drawn somewhere or we're back in the realms of those users who drive into rivers or across junctions because they weren't told by their SatNav not to? _________________ Darren Griffin
Obviously I can see that this thread is going nowhere.
However, over 700 visits have been made so perhaps my ‘reservations’ have been noted.
I would like to thank you for your postings and draw these points out of the 34 postings.
Perhaps, the topic can be locked?
Quote:
Perhaps a note on the download pages would not go amiss.
Pocketgps
Quote:
Perhaps the database should be extended to contain a flag to recording when the posted speed limit is "National Speed Limit" and what type of road it is (Single/dual/motorway)?
Skippy
Quote:
A simple warning to HGV drivers, trailer towers, etc. somewhere on the download page may be sensible though.
Andy_P2002
Quote:
...the mobile speed cameras (the ones in vans in a lay by) seem to specialise in picking out vans in a stream of traffic travelling at 60mph on a single carriageway and sending them tickets because they are exceeding their 50mph limit. We get these tickets fairly regularly for the fleet of transit vans at work.
Pcaouolte
Quote:
...make an NSL sign to replace the "70" one.
Andy_P2002
Quote:
So assuming we replaced '70' with 'NSL' in our POI file names, how would a device such as the Garmin handle that?
Darren
Quote:
Personally, I would suggest some instructions are posted detailing how the files could be renamed/merged to create lower limits based on individuals needs
GerryC
Quote:
Surely the whole purpose of a paid for database to provide the correct information to all users, not just the majority.
Pocketgps
Quote:
….his point was that on SOME brands, it DOESN'T provide the correct information to all users.
Andy_P2002
Quote:
…ONLY trigger an alert if you are going over a certain speed, so if your legal speed is lower than the "normal" speed limit, you will get NO warning of a camera at all.
Joined: Jan 04, 2006 Posts: 9323 Location: Durham, UK
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 3:47 pm Post subject:
Just for info....
Quote:
Garmin and maybe others ONLY trigger an alert if you are going over a certain speed, so if your legal speed is lower than the "normal" speed limit, you will get NO warning of a camera at all.
The Garmin Nuvi 7xx series shows the icons all the time regardless of speed. You only get an alert if you are over the limit. I believe earlier models work in the manner described above.
However older models can be forced to show the icons at all speeds using Ash10's Camera Manager software. It only works for TT and Garmin databases but i guess these would be the most popular databases to download.
Perhaps it might be worth approaching Ash10 and see if he'll knock up a program to change the standard database into a format for lorry drivers which would adjust the relevant speeds down? After all the CM has the facility to adjust the speeds up to include the 10% + 2mph ACPO limit, so it's just got to adjust the speeds down.
Addition: I've now PM'd Ash10 to see what he thinks.
Addition 2: Scrub that Ash10 pointed out the Dual Carridgeway / Motorway flaw which i didn't understand when MaFt mentioned it to me.
Last edited by PaulB2005 on Thu May 01, 2008 4:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 14/09/2002 20:56:18 Posts: 5231 Location: Surrey, United Kingdom
Posted: Thu May 01, 2008 5:32 pm Post subject:
Skippy wrote:
Tim Buxton wrote:
When I was in Scotland over Christmas and New Year, I saw plenty of '70' signs on the roadside, albeit mainly on the entrance sliproads for mororways.
They did that in New Zealand years ago. All speed limit signs are explicit. It is useful for foreign drivers who aren't sure what the speed limit should be.
So on motorways in Scotland, all vehicles, no matter what they weigh or what they are towing, can do 70mph on one of these motorways?
Skippy wrote:
The other thing is that people aren't always 100% certain what the sign means. A significant number of drivers don't realise that the speed limit on a dual carriageway is 70 MPH for example.
Not on all dual carriageways it isn't! And those people who don't know probably need catching and educating.
Skippy wrote:
Tim Buxton wrote:
I suppose that those who use bridge-height (and weight) database(s) will have to have extra guidance for these, too. I mean, they might be laden in one direction but not the other, or they might be driving a different height vehicle one day but not the next. Where will it all end?
Dumbing down in the extreme, IMO.
I don't think it's dumbing down. Let's say there's a route with a low/weak bridge that you've driven thousands of times. One day you drive a different vehicle and take the route you've always done without realising the danger of the different vehicle.
Of course we are all such advanced drivers who never make mistakes that such a thing would never happen to us, but there are plenty of mere mortals out there that it could happen to.
When you saw the roadside signs, you'd soon spot it though, wouldn't you? I was taught to drive each road as though I didn't know it. (Of course, I don't always do this, but if something changes, I'm to blame. Just me, that's it. _________________ Tim
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:46 am Post subject:
My apologies, whilst attempting to split off the posts discussing GATSO technology to here I inadvertently moved the last two messages pertinent to this thread.
I have copied them here to maintain continuity. The original messages are intact at the link above for the avoidance of doubt!
DennisN wrote:
strumble wrote:
Obviously I can see that this thread is going nowhere.
However, over 700 visits have been made so perhaps my ‘reservations’ have been noted.
I would like to thank you for your postings and draw these points out of the 34 postings.
Perhaps, the topic can be locked?
You are right, strumble, it's not a progressing debate any longer. There have been too many more senior participants than myself for me to take the step of locking the thread - perhaps someone from the Team will, please? I am worried that opinions seem to be getting set in concrete and on this site, that's not the way we usually go.
In the meantime, may I suggest it might take very little effort for a note to be made on the download page reflecting the basic fact that the database publishes car/bike-related data and there are other limits for other types of vehicles/driving situations - WITH A LINK to an article on the subject, which I suggest strumble could put forward - he's already contributed the main bulk of it.
and my closing post:
Darren wrote:
I'll ensure a note is added to the download page before the next database release.
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