Hi! We see you’re using an ad-blocker. We’re fine with that and won’t stop you visiting the site.
But as we’re losing ad-revenue from this then why not make a donation towards website running costs?. Or you could disable your ad-blocker for this site. We think you’ll find our adverts are not overbearing!
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:57 pm Post subject:
neil01 wrote:
have you also considered, another meaning, in that all the examples given are types of action which can't be made unintentionally (well at least by someone fit to be on the road) and in that context they are the same?
OK, yes I see your point.
I can see Lost_Property's point about the red light cameras. They don't bother me either (I don't have the red light database installed) because I don't habitually run red lights.
The databases here are a defense against the increasingly robotised enforcement which is more about making money than saving lives. Therefore, some people want a database of the camera locations and this includes bus lane cameras.
Do you guys have bus lane cameras in your area? What about the CCTV cameras that they use to issue you with parking tickets and fines for minor offences or for blocking box junctions? London is awash with them, big brother is everywhere. _________________ Gone fishing!
Yet, because of personal experience I always load the red light database - not because I jump red lights, but because I very nearly had an accident when the driver in front of me, who should have gone through on amber did an emergency stop, spun the car converting much of his forward motion into rotational motion (sorry for being so technical for everyone, but I think Skippy will know what I mean) so stopped dead, and me with my anti-lock brakes stopped straight, but only just in time.
Because of his behaviour - ie didn't stop as the lights changed (I was braking before he did), I think he intended to go through, saw the camera and panicked, so suddenly I had significantly less distance to stop than I thought I had!
So I like the warning that the driver in front might do a 'panic' stop.
I had significantly less distance to stop than I thought I had!
Still lost for words.
No offence neil01.
Lost for words? - not the only one!
The highway code quite clearly states that 'AMBER means 'Stop' at the stop line. You may go on only if the AMBER appears after you have crossed the stop line or are so close to it that to pull up might cause an accident' - which as he was too close to the line to bring the car to a controlled stop he should have driven through. http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/signs01.htm
As for the second point, you do not expect the car in front of you to throw the car into a spin and stop without good reason, so yes you can quite understandably suddenly have less room than you anticipated.
Do I gather from this that you would consider putting your car in a spin at traffic lights to stop at amber an acceptable standard of driving?
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 2543 Location: Rainham, Kent. England.
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject:
Quote:
he was too close to the line to bring the car to a controlled stop
He didn't think so.
Quote:
you do not expect the car in front of you to throw the car into a spin and stop without good reason
Yes I do. (Especially when you have 79 people on board plus 5 standing).
Quote:
Do I gather from this that you would consider putting your car in a spin at traffic lights to stop at amber an acceptable standard of driving?
I have never put my car in a spin anywhere (47 years driving). Wet, snow, ice. (Not even the single and double deck buses I drove around Kent for 8 years).
Never expect or assume the other driver is going to do something, unless you assume he is going to be stupid, or maybe inexperienced, having only recently passed their test. e.g. You are waiting to pull out of a junction and an approaching cars indicator shows the driver intends to turn into your road, do you pull out or do you wait, assuming he has left his indicator on by mistake? If you pulled out and he reshaped the side of your car, would you blame him?
If the traffic lights have been green for a long time, they are likely to change to Amber - Red very soon, be prepared.
If the car in front was a brick wall (i.e. static) could you stop?
Finally
Quote:
I was braking before he did
If you were braking before him you had obviously seen the lights changing and had started travelling slower than him. Therefore he would need a greater stopping distance than you, and in turn you less than him. Then how
Quote:
me with my anti-lock brakes stopped straight, but only just in time.
Apparently I'm not lost for words any more. :P Still no offence intended neil01, just trying to put things into perspective. _________________ Formerly known as Lost_Property
And NO that's NOT me in the Avatar.
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 2543 Location: Rainham, Kent. England.
Posted: Sat Jul 08, 2006 9:27 pm Post subject:
I do try, but the bloke walking in front of me, with a red flag, keeps my speed down. :P :P :P _________________ Formerly known as Lost_Property
And NO that's NOT me in the Avatar.
For your third point I never suggested you would - only wondered if you considered it reasonable.
As for assumption, I know the point you are making, but there is only so much you can do. Safe driving relies on assumption and anticipation, along with constantly re-evaluating the situation - I had it drummed into me by the Police driver who tought me, but you can't get it right every time. But having said all that, I did actually stop safely, just not as I would have liked to.
But as for the logic of needing to prepare for every eventuality; everytime you saw a car at a side road, to make absolutely sure that they didn't hit you, you would have to stop and let them out. After all, they could have their foot riding on the clutch and it could slip off just as you were passing. But you can't drive like that, you have to take calculated risks, in this example miniscule.
What you seem to me missing, deliberately or otherwise, is that I am referring to a case where the driver appeared to be going through the lights at amber (in my opinion reasonably, because he was close to the line when they turned) but then panicked and changed his mind, something I feel would have been unlikely had it not been for the presence of the camera, and had I not been constantly re-evaluating the situation I would probably have hit him.
As for the point with my anti-lock brakes, I did appologise earlier for being technical, but put simply, because he was converting much of his energy into rotation, he actually stopped more quickly than I could in a straight line. I don't think he intended to spin it - but ironically, if he hadn't, he would have stopped well into the junction, and I would have been able to stop normally.
But what really amazes me, is why a comment about how I like to have additional warnings about traffic cameras, because I believe that there is an increased chance of someone doing something stupid, should generate such a discussion on how you should drive.
Or, do we take a holier than though attitude, that you should be prepared for every single eventuality, no matter how remote, so warnings are not required? I think I would rather live in the real world and have a little help, since few of us are perfect drivers all the time.
Point to ponder:
There were several serious accidents at lights near where I live, so traffic light cameras were installed. The serious accidents have thankfully reduced, but the rear end shunts have increased. I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
Joined: Feb 01, 2006 Posts: 2543 Location: Rainham, Kent. England.
Posted: Sun Jul 09, 2006 12:57 am Post subject:
Quote:
Safe driving relies on assumption and anticipation
I said
Quote:
Never expect or assume the other driver is going to do something, unless you assume he is going to be stupid
I don't mean all drivers are stupid, you could watch 99 drivers and anticipate what they are going to do and you'd be right most of the time, but it's the hundreth one who does something completely stupid and you have a problem.
Quote:
But as for the logic of needing to prepare for every eventuality; everytime you saw a car at a side road, to make absolutely sure that they didn't hit you, you would have to stop and let them out. After all, they could have their foot riding on the clutch and it could slip off just as you were passing.
Exactly, I assume they may, and I've experiemced it a number of times over the years. The last time whilst driving a near full double deck bus. I had a choice of slamming on and possibly missing him, and maybe injuring a number of my passengers, or brake gently and hit him. I'll leave you to guess my choice.
Quote:
had I not been constantly re-evaluating the situation I would probably have hit him
And who, in the eyes of the law, would have been at fault? Not him. Although the majority of the blame could be aimed at him.
Quote:
because he was converting much of his energy into rotation, he actually stopped more quickly than I could in a straight line
Re-reading what you said I realise I misunderstood. Sorry.
Quote:
But what really amazes me, is why a comment about how I like to have additional warnings about traffic cameras, because I believe that there is an increased chance of someone doing something stupid, should generate such a discussion on how you should drive.
That's a point. I've enjoyed it though. I had nothing much on today.
Quote:
Or, do we take a holier than though attitude, that you should be prepared for every single eventuality, no matter how remote, so warnings are not required? I think I would rather live in the real world and have a little help, since few of us are perfect drivers all the time
I hope I haven't sounded 'holier than thou' and I'm not a perfect driver, but the way I drive has kept me out of trouble and no, I'm not an old dodderer, I just remember back to how I was taught to drive, notice 'taught to drive', not just shown how to get through a test.
Back when I started, 1960, we had drum brakes (which faded to virtually zero when descending a steep hill), cross-ply tyres which on ashphalt road or 'tar blocks' were totally useless in the wet, sloppy suspension and iffy steering. I was taught always to look ahead and had to change down to 3rd gear when approaching a school, crossroads, traffic lights. crossings, anticipating I may have to stop. Being in 3rd gear gave that extra bit of braking and was noticable. No motorways then, most A roads were three lane only, the centre one for overtaking in both directions, the 'Kamikazi lane'. No speed limits on them either.
Quote:
Point to ponder:
There were several serious accidents at lights near where I live, so traffic light cameras were installed. The serious accidents have thankfully reduced, but the rear end shunts have increased. I leave you to draw your own conclusions.
This appears to be happening at quite a lot of places, with Gatso's too. Close by me on a dual carriageway, it goes from 50 to 40, shortly after there is a camera. Many times I've been overtaken by someone doing 50 or more when they see the camera and hit the brakes. That's OK but what really gets me annoyed is, they pull into my lane causing me to brake, sometimes quite hard, to avoid their rear end.
I've quite enjoyed this but I think I'll leave it at that.
Take care and stay safe, there are some idiots out there. _________________ Formerly known as Lost_Property
And NO that's NOT me in the Avatar.
Posted: Today Post subject: Pocket GPS Advertising
We see you’re using an ad-blocker. We’re fine with that and won’t stop you visiting the site.
Have you considered making a donation towards website running costs?. Or you could disable your ad-blocker for this site. We think you’ll find our adverts are not overbearing!
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
Or you could disable your ad-blocker for this site. We think you’ll find our adverts are not overbearing!
Hi! We see you’re using an ad-blocker. We’re fine with that and won’t stop you visiting the site.
But as we’re losing ad-revenue from this then why not make a donation towards website running costs?. Or you could disable your ad-blocker for this site. We think you’ll find our adverts are not overbearing!
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in for private messages
Log in
