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Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 1:37 am Post subject: EU And Copyright Law
Quote:
The Premier League's copyright claim on match fixture lists has been rejected by European Union judges.
For the past few years, anyone wishing to list fixtures for the FA Premier and Scottish Premier Leagues — including, of course, unofficial sites like ToffeeWeb — has been required to purchase a license from Football Dataco.
Yahoo, bookmaker Stan James, and sports information firm Enetpulse were accused by the football leagues of breaching EU copyright laws by reproducing fixture lists without a license. European judges ruled this week, however, that compiling match fixture lists needed "significant" work, but did not entail the creativity required for copyright protection.
I think the last paragraph pure and simply negates the pgpsw claim for copyright on the speed camera databse. _________________ Moto G5s Plus, Sygic 17.4.8
that compiling match fixture lists needed "significant" work, but did not entail the creativity required for copyright protection
I think whether it is football matches or Speed cameras is irrelavent, Must point out that i have no interest either way. _________________ Moto G5s Plus, Sygic 17.4.8
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:24 pm Post subject:
I am afraid that the law does not make things as black and white as you think. In my opinion the press quite regularly "bend" what courts say to make a headline or a scandal or a mountain out of a molehill. I suggest you read the actual judgement and make your own mind up. It is can be found at http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/EUECJ/2012/C60410.html.
Paragraphs 38 and 39 are the important ones.
"38 As regards the setting up of a database, that criterion of originality is satisfied when, through the selection or arrangement of the data which it contains, its author expresses his creative ability in an original manner by making free and creative choices (see, by analogy, Infopaq International, paragraph 45; Bezpečnostní softwarová asociace, paragraph 50; and Painer, paragraph 89) and thus stamps his 'personal touch' (Painer, paragraph 92).
39 By contrast, that criterion is not satisfied when the setting up of the database is dictated by technical considerations, rules or constraints which leave no room for creative freedom (see, by analogy, Bezpečnostní softwarová asociace, paragraphs 48 and 49, and Football Association Premier League and Others, paragraph 98)."
So now you can make your own mind up. And so can our courts, because the European court decided it was for the national court to decide whether the criteria for copyright set out have been met. And that comes back to the point I made at the beginning. The press are wrong - the Premier League have not "lost" or "won" the action. That has yet to be decided by our courts. But that does not make good copy does it?
Having said all that PGPSW may have some difficulties meeting the criteria, which are set out in paragraph 46. _________________ Peter
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Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15138 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:39 pm Post subject:
Paragraph 46:
Quote:
- the significant labour and skill required for setting up that database cannot as such justify such a protection if they do not express any originality in the selection or arrangement of the data which that database contains.
The backend database is highly original and 100% customised for our needs. The copies of the database that people download have been created using customised code to export it in a format specific to the user, with customised arrangement of the data for our watermarking process.
The output from the database that you download does, indeed, express originality in the selection/arrangement of the data.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Sat Mar 03, 2012 12:43 pm Post subject:
MaFt, I hope you are right. Or more correctly I hope that, if it ever comes to it, you can persuade a judge that you are right. But at least it will be a British judge, not one of the awful European ones _________________ Peter
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I raised this post due to being one who had suffered from copyright infringement and pursuing thru solicitors and barristers some 15 years ago and it is a very complex issue even more so now the EU is involved, In my case i was advised not to continue due to the high costs involved and no guarantees which eventually was settled out of court and only covered my costs but at least gave me the very slight satisfaction of their guilt, Personally MaFt I think your argument is very weak but no doubt further discussion will occur on this subject. _________________ Moto G5s Plus, Sygic 17.4.8
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 10:39 am Post subject:
Copyright legislation is a minefield and, as with other laws such as tose covering libel etc, the costs involved in prosecuting a case can be make such action ill advised. As you are someone who has suffered from copyright infringement I find your choice of wording slightly antagonistic, why?
In actual fact our data is protected in law in two ways. Database rights AND Copyright.
An ECJ ruling said:
Quote:
Database rights arise where the maker of the database has invested substantially in obtaining or verifying data from independent sources.
And
Quote:
A a database can attract copyright as well as database rights. Makers of databases can also rely on copyright protection to in addition to database rights to protect their investment.
And of course, we will always have the right to protect our work as per the terms that subscribers agree to when they subscribe. i.e. we can and will ban anyone who shares our database contrary to any agreement.
Ultimately though, the debate is interesting but rather pointless as we would hope never to have to defend our position in a court. _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:10 am Post subject:
peterc10 wrote:
[i]its author expresses his creative ability in an original manner by making free and creative choices (see, by analogy, Infopaq International, paragraph 45; Bezpečnostní softwarová asociace, paragraph 50; and Painer, paragraph 89) and thus stamps his 'personal touch' (Painer, paragraph 92).
PGPSW meet this quite simply by the way the data is created, look at a scenario where twenty users all supply reports of a new/ modified camera, each position will be unique and it's up to the database admin to establish the best position for the camera to reside within the database, this is stamping the "Personal Touch" - Mike
Joined: Apr 04, 2006 Posts: 10118 Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 11:42 am Post subject:
Darren wrote:
And of course, we will always have the right to protect our work as per the terms that subscribers agree to when they subscribe. i.e. we can and will ban anyone who shares our database contrary to any agreement.
I don't think that this principle is anything to do with copyright laws as Darren says, just the end user agreement in the terms and conditions. Would they (Ts & Cs) stand up in court if it came to it? However I am led to believe the summary banning of people has reduced piracy quite a lot.
Darren cetainly not intended to be antagonistic and i resent the suggestion, I am just voicing an opinion, I certainly dont blame you for trying to protect your Database but that is not part of the Copyright Laws, the laws intend to protect creativity and compiling a database complete with locations is not creativity in my opinion, ok it does need additional work in verifying etc and in view of the commercial aspect and in the that sense i do accept the need for protection. _________________ Moto G5s Plus, Sygic 17.4.8
Darren,On reflection perhaps the Header was a little inflamatory which i note has been changed,however you are correct that it is an expensive route to go, I had a 3 way 15mins telephone conversation with a Barrister in my solicitors office and added nearly £2500 to my legal costs and that was about 15 years ago,
At the time i got very involved in this subject and it very nearly drove me mad due to being self employed, so quickly put it out of my mind so now being very much retired the last thing i want to do is get deeply involved again in this. _________________ Moto G5s Plus, Sygic 17.4.8
Last edited by aj2052 on Sun Mar 04, 2012 6:52 pm; edited 2 times in total
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Sun Mar 04, 2012 5:21 pm Post subject:
aj2052 wrote:
I certainly dont blame you for trying to protect your Database but that is not part of the Copyright Laws, the laws intend to protect creativity and compiling a database complete with locations is not creativity in my opinion, ok
And that is your opinion, which you are entitled to. There is specific legislation that protects databases and we're happy that the work we do with the data to entitles us to protection under the Database Rights and Copyright protection legislation. _________________ Darren Griffin
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