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Speed Cameras in Europe
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Gee-Pee
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 12:27 pm    Post subject: Speed Cameras in Europe Reply with quote

I belong to another forum where there is a discussion about the legality of speed camera warnings in France, Germany and Austria - Switzerland is already clear to most.
There seems to be a misunderstanding about GPS devices with speed cam warning data loaded as opposed to devices which detect speed cameras.
Is there a definitive source which explains the requirements/legislation of the three countries mentioned in respect speed camera detection/warnings?
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 1:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Got the answer from Inst of Advance Motorists - they say:-

Code:

COUNTRY     |   POI DATA    |   DETECTION EQUIPMENT
------------------------------------------------------------
Austria     |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Belgium     |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Bosnia-Herz.|   Prohibited  |   Prohibited
Bulgaria    |   Prohibited  |   Prohibited
Cyprus      |   Prohibited  |   Prohibited
Czech Rep.  |   Prohibited  |   Prohibited
Denmark     |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Finland     |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
France      |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Germany     |   Prohibited* |   Prohibited
Hungary     |   Permitted   |   Permitted
Ireland     |   Prohibited* |   Prohibited
Luxembourg  |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Macedonia   |   Prohibited  |   Prohibited
Netherlands |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Norway      |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Portugal    |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Russia      |   Permitted   |   Some types permitted
Slovakia    |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Sweden      |   Permitted   |   Prohibited
Switzerland |   Prohibited  |   Prohibited
UK          |   Permitted   |   Legislation in preparation

* See posts below for clarification - i.e. usually ignored by police.


Sorry, my formatting gone awry. But I'm sure you get the picture

edited by MaFt - formatting the table
Re-edited by Andy P to put the country first
Very Happy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 5:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The fact that that list says uk legislation in in preparation implies it is referring to actual detection equipment (laser, radar etc) as opposed to gps locations.

The uk has always said GPS location is no issue. They shot themselves in the foot when they said cameras were for safety and not money; so by providing locations we are assisting safety ;)

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Gee-Pee
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 26, 2011 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
The fact that that list says uk legislation in in preparation implies it is referring to actual detection equipment (laser, radar etc) as opposed to gps locations.

The uk has always said GPS location is no issue. They shot themselves in the foot when they said cameras were for safety and not money; so by providing locations we are assisting safety ;)

MaFt


True, that is what is implied. I am not sure exactly how up to date this list is but guess it is about right. At least I know not take risks in the countries, which say 'prohibited', and which I regularly visit ...........I do not ever use detection equipment. For instance I will have to be more careful in the Czech Republic & Germany - I am already for Switzerland.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
The fact that that list says uk legislation in in preparation implies it is referring to actual detection equipment (laser, radar etc) as opposed to gps locations.

The list has Point of Interest systems in the first column, Country in the second column and Camera detection equipment in the third column. (EDIT A.P. - Now re-formatted to country first)
So for the UK it shows POIs "permitted" and detection equipment "legislation in preparation".
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 27, 2011 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pcaouolte wrote:
MaFt wrote:
The fact that that list says uk legislation in in preparation implies it is referring to actual detection equipment (laser, radar etc) as opposed to gps locations.

The list has Point of Interest systems in the first column, Country in the second column and Camera detection equipment in the third column.
(EDIT A.P. - Now re-formatted to country first)
So for the UK it shows POIs "permitted" and detection equipment "legislation in preparation".


Thanks for clarification. I'm sorry that my formatting did not make that clear.
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

in which case the list is wrong. they are NOT prohibited in Germany - it's rather messy but from what we understand (via lutz who has read the original german documents) the 'national law' says they are not allowed but it's up to each 'region' / 'state' to make their own laws in this regard, which none of them have...

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
in which case the list is wrong. they are NOT prohibited in Germany - it's rather messy but from what we understand (via lutz who has read the original german documents) the 'national law' says they are not allowed but it's up to each 'region' / 'state' to make their own laws in this regard, which none of them have...

MaFt


.........and that's probably why TomTom still include German speed cams on their devices whereas they do not include Swiss ones. Thanks for the clarification. Confused
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 12:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

likewise, in Ireland POIs are technically 'illegal' but realistically the Garda turn a blind eye to them. i'm not aware of anyone being fined for having speed cam pois on their satnav.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you can see, I've had a little play and re-jigged the chart to put the country in the first column.... a bit easier to read I think.

I've also added an asterisk to any entry where further clarification has been added in the replies (such as the police ignoring POI databases).

If anyone has any further info. for the other countries, please post here and we'll add more asterisks for the exception notes. Smile
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 28, 2011 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_P wrote:
As you can see, I've had a little play and re-jigged the chart to put the country in the first column.... a bit easier to read I think.

I've also added an asterisk to any entry where further clarification has been added in the replies (such as the police ignoring POI databases).

If anyone has any further info. for the other countries, please post here and we'll add more asterisks for the exception notes. Smile


Thanks Andy. Living up to your handle (Should be genius), as usual. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 10:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update on the situation in France.

Earlier this year Sarkozy decided to be seen as an interfering socialist so thought he would crack down on the motorist He realised that he might lose the 2012 election if he carried on being a little right wing. The law in France had dictated that the position of all fixed cameras (called radar in France) should be signed in advance. This has been almost universally been done apart from a very few ‘autoroute’ cameras. These signs are usually between 500m and 2km in advance, and pretty obvious unless you are overtaking a line of HGVs. Unlike in the UK they are not littered about even where there are not any cameras.

Sarkozy’s proposed amendments were to scrap the requirement for signs and make GPS POI data illegal (like in Switzerland). There was understandably considerable concern about these changes. The sign scrapping proposal was changed such that in advance of cameras there would be a ‘un radar pedagogigue’. These are like the digital ‘ you are travelling at xxxMPH’ signs we get in the UK – generally in the gift of UK local councils to try to placate the residents who think that everyone is speeding through their idyllic neighbourhood. Whether these signs will appear everywhere I am not sure (my french is not good enough) but I have seen them at some of the newer camera sites. They would also be situated at non-camera sites, so it is not necessarily a warning that there is a camera ahead..

The other strand of the new legislation, banning POI data has caused even more controversy because immediately the manufacturers of the hardware (and being France most of the systems are of local manufacture) decided to alter the description of the devices to show ‘dangerous road conditions’ rather than camera sites. Obviously a technicality, but as with most government censorship it doesn’t take long for a determined geek to figure out a way round the law. So this proposal has been watered down with the government specifying where these ‘dangerous sites’ are and the manufacturers agreeing to use this data. These ‘dangerous places’ won’t only be where cameras are situated. This agreement comes into effect this month I think.

There is however some resistance to this and I believe there are some ‘human rights’ campaigners taking the government to court trying to say that having a list of places (eg POI database) cannot be made illegal.

How this will affect UK drivers travelling in France remains to be seen. The gendarmerie can be pretty zealous in upholding the law of France against the invading hoards from the north. Even though they are bringing much needed foreign currency into the country, the ‘forces of order’ seem to think this money is the state’s and not for spending ‘en vacance’.

The above is my interpretation of the newspaper articles I have read, although I must admit my grasp of the french language is pretty basic. If anyone knows better I stand to be corrected.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 6:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The new French legislation came into effect today. as part of a range of "safety" measures.

See google translation.

I don't want to draw conclusions, but the implication seems to be that the PGPSW database (in its current form) is no longer legal in France.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 05, 2012 8:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TomTom tweeted this about an hour ago:
http://uk.support.tomtom.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/5560/?locale=nl_NL

Not sure if it fully clarifies anything.
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 06, 2012 5:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JaguarV12e wrote:
The new French legislation came into effect today. as part of a range of "safety" measures.

See google translation.

I don't want to draw conclusions, but the implication seems to be that the PGPSW database (in its current form) is no longer legal in France.


PGPSW Update here: http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&p=573244#573244

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