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Joined: Jul 07, 2006 Posts: 1649 Location: Newcastle, England, UK
Posted: Tue Oct 30, 2007 9:58 pm Post subject:
I have to add my comments here, been VERY new to the whole TMC thing as ive just got a brand new tt1 3rd edition with latest software!
Now, i wasnt sure what to expect when i bought the tmc cable, but i`m just back from doing almost 1000miles down to oxford from newcastle and around a lot of the south and Hull. Anyway, what i found was that generally, and i was on a lot of different roads and motorways, was that most of the long term and massive delays were picked up without an estimated time delay for the disruption. An estimated length of delay would have greatly helped me route round the "lane closure" that was a 1hr delay 1 junction before i was due to leave the motorway!
But my biggest gripe is that, for example, on sunday evening heading to oxford, 2 accidents occured on either side of the carriageway which blocked off the 3rd lane on each side. Police and highways agency people were attending the scene, the overhead signs came on saying 3rd lane blocked, accident slow down to 40mph. Did my tomtom get any info to route me round? Not a thing. Did it give me any idea of the time delay i should expect? Not a thing. I passed 2 junctions in 1st gear where i could have found an alternative route if i had known the area, or if the TMC had passed the correct info to my tomtom. Only once we had passed the incident, did the other side of the road show up as a delay on my tomtom, still with no estimated duration of delay for the northbound traffic.
Not once in these 3 days and nearly 1000miles has my tomtom, which HAS had a solid green circle for the TMC signal routed me round ANY problems. I`d estimate approximately 3-4 hours of sitting on the motorway, not moving since sunday morning until this evening, i`ve wasted. Now i can understand if an accident happens in front of you, then its not gonna appear on the TMC for a while, but 90mins on a motorway with overhead signage being correct and NOTHING on the TMC i honestly think is unreasonable. Im just lucky i gave myself all day sunday to do 300miles, if i had a deadline to stick to i would have been better getting the train. I cant give specific details on where and when the major incidents occured, because there were too many to remember. I just hope my experience is a one off!
I feel sorry for people who drive long distances who rely on the TMC/Tomtom setup! _________________ Tomtom GO 1005 LIVE
Joined: Oct 12, 2007 Posts: 43 Location: Southampton, UK
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 2:28 am Post subject: Is TMC really worth the bother?
I posted this message on the ViaMichelin thread as well. The ViaMichelin Moderator conveniently changes the subject every time I mention these problems and my Posts get lost in superseded pages.
I'm interested to know whether other Sat Navs have the same issues as my ViaMichelin X-980T when it comes to re-routing due to congestion. An example follows.
Just before I joined the M27 yesterday at 08:00 I had a valid TMC message, congestion for 8 miles at 25mph - no diversion was offered (ViaMicehelin said that it will only re-route if the average speed is lower than 10 mph) and it also didn't re-calculate the estimated arrival time of 08:10 - my destination was just off the motorway. By my calculation - 8 miles at 25 mph is 19 minutes.
I went ahead and joined the Motorway anyway and even though the traffic was practically stationary the estimated arrival time was not re-calcuated either before or after joining the Motorway. All it did was continue to increase by the amount of time I was stuck in traffic, so after 5 minutes stuck in traffic the arrival time was 08:15 and so on. It always assumed that I was able to drive at normal Motorway speeds form my current position.
I think this is a serious shortfall in how TMC is managed to the extent that it's almost useless if this is how it works. The only option is to find an alternative using the Manual Bypass option - not very safe when trying to pay attention to the road?
Again, I would be interested to hear if other manufacturers have similar shortfalls.
By the way, TMC reception and accuracy is quite good along the M27 corridor - I haven't gone any further afield since I got the Sat Nav. _________________ ViaMichelin X-980T
Ver. 7.0.3 (Build 166)
ROM 1.0505.0409 - Sep 20 2006
Cartography Edition 2007
An estimated length of delay would have greatly helped me route round the "lane closure" that was a 1hr delay 1 junction before i was due to leave the motorway
I'm not sure who TT subscribe to for their TMC though from your comments I suspect it may be ITIS (for whom I have little regard). A previous Garmin model I had used Trafficmaster TMC and when a delay occured you could click on it, see the severity of the delay and length of hold up and then choose to re-route or not.
ITIS, I believe, have stated that it is not their intention to publish the severity of delays because of its variable nature but that doesn't seem to worry Trafficmaster.
I use a Trafficmaster Freeway alongside my satnav which is vastly more reliable, provides me with advance warnings of hold ups incl length and likely delay and is probably right more than 90% of the time - I am sure it would have warned you of the delays you experienced over the week (TM have stopped selling them now but you can often find one on e-bay)
Joined: Nov 04, 2003 Posts: 2225 Location: Bedfordshire, UK
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:23 am Post subject: Re: Is TMC really worth the bother?
RCorry wrote:
Again, I would be interested to hear if other manufacturers have similar shortfalls.
Garmin use the Trafficmaster delay data to recalculate your ETA, and will sometimes even alert you to a completely different route to take, which will work out faster due to the delays. It also offers you the ability to select a particular traffic delay and you can ask it to avoid that route. _________________ Please don't be offended if I do not reply to a PM - please ask questions via the forums.
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 10:48 am Post subject: Re: Is TMC really worth the bother?
RCorry wrote:
Just before I joined the M27 yesterday at 08:00 I had a valid TMC message, congestion for 8 miles at 25mph - no diversion was offered (ViaMicehelin said that it will only re-route if the average speed is lower than 10 mph) and it also didn't re-calculate the estimated arrival time of 08:10 - my destination was just off the motorway. By my calculation - 8 miles at 25 mph is 19 minutes.
The trouble with the M27 (and some other motorways) is that any re-routing would depend very much upon your origin and destination.
For example, if you are travelling from Portsmouth and then heading up the M3, the only real alternative is to leave at J10 and head along the A32, or perhaps turn around and head back along the M27 then A3(M) and A3
The A27 is usally almost as busy as the M27, so congestion on the M27 would automatically increase traffic which is already heavy.
Other possible diversionary routes from the M27 are liikely to lead you through towns and villages and often along fairly minor A & B roads.
perussell wrote:
I use a Trafficmaster Freeway alongside my satnav which is vastly more reliable, provides me with advance warnings of hold ups incl length and likely delay and is probably right more than 90% of the time - I am sure it would have warned you of the delays you experienced over the week (TM have stopped selling them now but you can often find one on e-bay)
Snap - and I listen to radio traffic bulletins
...and if I'm travelling in unknown territory, I usually have a quick look at a road atlas too so that I can find my own possible detours in case TMC fails to re-route. _________________ Andy
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Joined: Oct 12, 2007 Posts: 43 Location: Southampton, UK
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 11:32 am Post subject:
GPS_fan, Thanks for your comments. I agree that there are not many alternatives when there is a jam on the M27 - I deal with it on a daily basis!
The main point I was trying to make was that the X-980T doesn't seem to re-calculate the arrival time even though it knows the traffic is slower! If it doesn't do this, how can it give suitable alternative routes.
By the way, I didn't mention on my earlier post that it uses ITIS for TMC and, so far, I have found the traffic information for the Motorway quite reliable. Not so good for off-motorway queuing traffic though. _________________ ViaMichelin X-980T
Ver. 7.0.3 (Build 166)
ROM 1.0505.0409 - Sep 20 2006
Cartography Edition 2007
An estimated length of delay would have greatly helped me route round the "lane closure" that was a 1hr delay 1 junction before i was due to leave the motorway
I'm not sure who TT subscribe to for their TMC though from your comments I suspect it may be ITIS (for whom I have little regard).
TT do indeed subscribe to the ITiS data.
Quote:
A previous Garmin model I had used Trafficmaster TMC and when a delay occured you could click on it, see the severity of the delay and length of hold up and then choose to re-route or not.
ITIS, I believe, have stated that it is not their intention to publish the severity of delays because of its variable nature but that doesn't seem to worry Trafficmaster.
TT also show the delay. In fact ITiS show delays more often that TM.. And the Garmin interface for traffic is just complete and utter pants. With TT you get a little display at the right of the nav map, and it shows where all of the delays are along your planned route. Garmin on the other hand just show an icon that you have to click on before getting a grey low-res display that shows the traffic on your current route ONLY. You then have to make multiple selections to find out what each individual problem/delay is. TT's display (When you touch the traffic summary & 'show traffic on route) is a cracking little display that shows you ALL traffic around your route (In fact TT show the all traffic on the nav display, wheras garmin now don't), and you can go from one to the next witha single tap AND get the details at the same time (Details & map are separate on the Garmin).
I suspect TT have people who are more interested in a usable product, wheras garmin designers seem to not actually be drivers... (Because their products border on downright dangerous to use there's so many different taps & things to get the data you want to see).
Quote:
I use a Trafficmaster Freeway alongside my satnav which is vastly more reliable, provides me with advance warnings of hold ups incl length and likely delay and is probably right more than 90% of the time - I am sure it would have warned you of the delays you experienced over the week (TM have stopped selling them now but you can often find one on e-bay)
never used one. But if it's right 90% of the time they must be using a different feed than garmins TMC-21 TM receiver.
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 4:53 pm Post subject:
Hamie wrote:
never used one. But if it's right 90% of the time they must be using a different feed than garmins TMC-21 TM receiver.
They use localised transmitters by the roadside, alongside the sensors - no they don't rely on RDS reception
I don't know if the data is handled differently, but the Freeway tells you where a hold-up is and an approximate delay _________________ Andy
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Joined: Dec 28, 2005 Posts: 2003 Location: Antrobus, Cheshire
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 5:11 pm Post subject:
GPS_fan wrote:
Hamie wrote:
never used one. But if it's right 90% of the time they must be using a different feed than garmins TMC-21 TM receiver.
They use localised transmitters by the roadside, alongside the sensors - no they don't rely on RDS reception
I don't know if the data is handled differently, but the Freeway tells you where a hold-up is and an approximate delay
In a previous job where I did lots of miles and used a TM Freeway (still have it somewhere). It was very good for local delays (i.e. anything upto 40 miles IIRC). But you could easily come out of one jam to hit another a few miles down the road - and off you go again - sometimes with no knowledge of the back roads you were on.
With the GARMIM GTM21/660 I get the chance to get more info and make a decision if I want to re-route. If the subsequent re-route gets a delay then I can repeat the steps. And with the navigation you tend to have some idea of where you my be going! _________________ Phil
Joined: Jan 04, 2007 Posts: 2789 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu Nov 01, 2007 9:51 pm Post subject:
philpugh wrote:
With the GARMIM GTM21/660 I get the chance to get more info and make a decision if I want to re-route. If the subsequent re-route gets a delay then I can repeat the steps. And with the navigation you tend to have some idea of where you my be going!
I don't think that I'd have the confidence to rely solely on TMC, but when it works, it's a great tool and radio bulletins and TM Freeway help provide a little extra data to make an educated guess as to how to proceed _________________ Andy
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Joined: Nov 24, 2006 Posts: 77 Location: Worcester, UK
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 9:48 am Post subject: wherefore art thou, ITiS ?
Does the (perhaps less) brave man from ITiS still visit this thread, which he started? Question posed on 23rd October (page 9 of this thread (how does one insert a link!? )) has gone unanswered and he seems conspicuous now by the absence of his posts ...
Joined: Oct 12, 2007 Posts: 43 Location: Southampton, UK
Posted: Fri Nov 02, 2007 11:18 am Post subject: TrafficMaster Freeway and Manual Diversions
I like the idea of using lots of alternatives to get more confidence in traffic information, however, the X-980T (V6.5.4) needs 4 menu inputs just to get to the Diversion option! Not something you want to do while driving.
Even when you get to the Diversion you have no control over where it sends you and you don't get the option to divert again, it just gives the option to Cancel the Diversion! Dosn't give much flexibility.
I know that I could just add intermediate points, but again, that's a bit in depth while driving.
I'm hoping that their new Version 7 due out soon will be better. _________________ ViaMichelin X-980T
Ver. 7.0.3 (Build 166)
ROM 1.0505.0409 - Sep 20 2006
Cartography Edition 2007
I no longer use a Garmin so don't have the T/M TMC feed any longer. However the T/M Freeway suits me just fine - I have been using it for nearly 10 years now!. It may only work for 2 junctions or 10 miles ahead but that is often good enough notice to take avoiding action. If I choose to leave the M-Way I let the current SatNav re-route me independently (once it gives up trying to turn me back around to the original route ).
Yesterday evening travelled back from J8 of the M4 to J17. The traffic was not great with mulitple hold ups on the M4 but the Freeway nailed them all, indicating the length and likely delay so i was able to make a concious decision whether to divert or stick with it (I chose the latter option but at least I had good data upon which to make the choice.)
I believe that when ITIS indicates a delay via TMC they are reluctant to state the length or likely delay because in their opinion congestion is variable which seems to suggest they do not update their info perhaps as dynamically as TM so the TMC message may indicate congestion but not how long nor the expected delay.
I have to admit I am amazed to see people indicating accuracy of ITIS data but can only speak from personal opinion where as far as congestion is concerned the outputs are worse than useless with numerous phantom warnings which I now just ignore. Yes, ITIS gets road closures, roadworks etc right but not the congestion - at least not down the M4.
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