New Mobile Phone law and GPS

[stuart]

Thats quite correct Skippy...At the moment...But it will become endorsable eventually, just wait and see. So eventually The Chancellor will have to look again at ways to sort his debts out, because there will be very few motorists left on the roads who have a license to drive:- who can be Tax, Fined or invited to contribute to the UK cash flow problem.

[matt_e]

The double standards and inconsistencies around all of this are amazing. In the same week my girlfriend was fined for taking a bite out of an apple she was keeping on her lap, I saw a police man eating his sandwich whilst driving with one hand and even more outrageously a police man driving one handed because he was holding the cigarette in his other hand out of the window!!!

What I don't understand is can you use a conventional (wired cf. bluetooth) handsfree to receive a call whilst driving so long as you don't touch the phone? Is it OK to have it sitting in the well by the gearstick? If not do I need to adapt my PDA mount to hold it?



Matt

[gracar]

At the risk of boring people to death the AA offers the following clarification and highlights areas of concern...

Holding and using a mobile phone while driving will become illegal from 1 December 2003. Offenders face a £30 fixed penalty or a fine of up to £1,000 if convicted in court. Mobile phones fitted with hands-free kits will still be legal.

Drivers of goods or passenger-carrying vehicles face fines of up to £2,500. The government plans to increase the fixed penalty to £60 in the future and make the offence endorseable, with three penalty points being likely.

Drivers using a hand-held phone can still commit the more serious offences of careless and inconsiderate driving, dangerous driving or causing death by dangerous driving. Conviction for causing a death will almost invariably result in a prison sentence if a phone is being used.

Hands-free phones are not considered safer than hand-held phones but difficulties in enforcing the law means they will still be legal. Evidence of mobile phone use may still be used in court.

Areas of concern

Drivers will be able to use hand-held phones when trapped in congested traffic, as long as the engine is switched off. This does not override the laws on dangerous parking or where drivers can stop.

Devices held in the hand for at least part of the phoning operation will be illegal – it will need to be fitted in some sort of cradle. This will also apply to transmission and display devices such as navigation units.

It will be legal to carry switched on hand-held phones in vehicles, and for the phone to receive data. It is only when the driver picks the phone up that an offence could be committed.

Driving without proper control of a vehicle will be strengthened to a £60 fine and endorsement. It will cover other distractions, including eating, drinking and smoking.

Employers could face a "cause or permit" offence if they require employees to break the law.

[stuart]

OK Gracar....The last part of that seems to be the best way of getting rid of your partner....Its usually the Company Secretary who picks up the 'Use, cause or permit' Extra offence...Normally associated with overweight HGV's.....But it would be down to the driver if he/she answers the ringing mobile 'phone. Its the same as seat belts, speeding or parking tickets...The employer doesn't get a 'use,cause or permit' fine as well as the offender..(I know some very good Defence Silicitors in Bournemouth who would take this on...)
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[gracar]

I got this information off the AA so you're shooting the postman.

However it does say..."if they require employees to break the law"...which of course they won't.

I do know that companies are being advised to officially inform their employees that it is the responsiblity of the employee to act within the constraints of the law.

[Skippy]

[MikeB]

The department for transport who drafted this legislation has a Q&A section on their site at http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_rdsafety/documents/page/dft_rdsafety_025216.hcsp

The one of importance to us is:

Q4. Will drivers still be able to use navigation equipment or personal digital assistants (PDAs) or other computer equipment that sends or receives data (which would include GPS transmissions)?

Yes - providing that it is not a hand-held device. Use of devices other than mobile phones are only prohibited if the device performs an interactive communication function by sending and receiving data. If the device does not perform this type of function, you can use the device without breaching the regulations.


But remember the warning in the Highway Code (Rule 128) that using in-vehicle systems can be distracting. You must exercise proper control of your vehicle at all times.

The full act (if you can call it that) can be read at http://www.legislation.hmso.gov.uk/si/si2003/20032695.htm
_________________
Mike Barrett

[Skippy]

[alix776]

sorry but the offence is now endorsable by points as well as fine if you take it court you could be fined 1000 pounds if you are consider a professinal driver ie hgv psv driver then it could be upto 2500 for breachingf the new law
_________________
currently using aponia truck navigation on windows phone. Good bye IOS don't let the door hit you on the way out .

Oh the joys of being a courier.
device Lumia 950 xl

[tedkay]

Hi

This is all very interesting and leads me to ask:

What is the difference between looking at a PDA screen and,say, a speedometer? The plethora of speed cameras forces us to look at the speedo a lot more than we used to, so are we to assume that the police consider looking away from the road at the speedo (or for that matter temperature or other gauges) permissable, and looking at a PDA not permissable? What about looking at roadsigns, your rearview/wing mirrors etc.?

The mobile phone thing raises the question will thousands of police now be returned to traffic duty to enforce it? I don't think so somehow. We are all aware that all police forces have dramatically reduced their traffic police since the cameras were introduced. Anyway, you have always been liable to prosecution using a phone while driving. I personally can't see why talking on a phone is any more or less distracting than talking to another person in the car with you. And anyway, if it is so dangerous, why are the police themselves allowed to do it?

Ted

[Skippy]

[DavidW]

One of the arguments about other people in the car is that they are aware of the road conditions and will probably respond to times of high driver workload. Someone on the end of a mobile phone cannot do this!


The advanced training argument is one I do buy - because I am advanced trained (though not Police Class 1 - I'm a mere RoSPA Advanced Drivers Association Silver certificate holder, who is hoping to get on with some more training soon and try for a Gold grading). RoADA teach the police system, and all their examiners are Police Class 1 certificate holders.

The police system involves a very systematic approach to driving - particularly in areas like observation and hence hazard perception. Inherent in this is a degree of workload management - for this reason, I usually drive with my car stereo off these days because I'm aware that it is a distraction. I do have a hands free mobile, but only use it on the rarest of occasions. The official RoADA policy is that I shouldn't have a mobile capable of disturbing me in any way in the vehicle. Even a Trafficmaster is frowned upon - though I believe attitudes to well set up satellite navigation are softening fast, as it can be an aid to safety and cause minimal distraction (the 'safety speed' on my TomTom Navigator 2 setup is very deliberately 40mph, and I rarely look at the screen except at roundabouts - my iPAQ is in a Brodit mount at the level of my instrument panel).


I do recommend RoADA - if you're in range of a local group, it's a very good and pretty cheap way of improving your driving. The observers who help you improve your skills don't charge for their time, so to prepare for and take the test will cost you no more than about 100 pounds (less if you don't have to pay for your own fuel).

Unless things have changed recently, due to a quirk in the law, anyone who teaches car driving for money has to be an Approved Driving Instructor - even if they're only teaching Advanced Driving. This means that police driving instructors (certainly the civilians and I believe those who are serving police officers as well) have to hold an ADI certificate, and be periodically check tested on their tuition skills for learners! In my local RoADA group, one of the senior observers is an ADI, but he falls in line with the rest of the observers when he's working with the group; the only requirement for observer support is that you have to have paid your subscription to the group and produce, on demand, your insurance certificate and, if relevant, MoT certificate.


The best policy is to concentrate on your driving, not on any communications. Typically a police radio message is very short, and they're trained to listening to the radio all the time - it's something they get used to and it becomes a background task. It is a distraction - but probably not as much as a phone call.


The police are, like all of us, subject to the law - even with some exemptions. I can't remember whether there's an exemption to the handheld mobile phone law for those serving the emergency services - or, indeed, whether TETRA handsets (which are remarkably mobile phone like in many ways) are specifically excluded.

I can understand why it was easier to exempt all two-way radio. That said, I hold a Full Amateur licence, but no longer operate vehicle mobile; I don't have a radio fitted permanently to my car and even wearing a headset I felt a long time ago that my portable installation wasn't very safe so I stopped using it. I believe there's significant driver workload issues - though I can see that people that do it all day, every day tend to get used to it as a background task. On the amateur repeaters, however, I've heard a lot of truck drivers suddenly stop mid sentence and say that they dropped the mic to negotiate a roundabout - I'm not sure that's really a good advert for amateur radio or LGV drivers!


Any police officer that does anything stupid can be prosecuted for driving without due care and attention. Particularly if he or she holds a Class 1 certificate, they should know when it is and isn't safe from a workload point of view to use communications equipment when driving. Having said that, most traffic cars carry two officers - it's the one in the passenger seat that looks after the comms usually.



David

[stuart]

Firstly, I will permit current serving Police Officers to respond to the Police comments......I was trained as an Advanced Driver after completing Standard Driving courses and Local Driving courses.....Hands free radio transmissions used to be dealt with by a spring loaded long stalked switch which permitted speech whilst driving. Mobile 'phones were hands free fitted into the vehicles. (Nokia's) and as for being double crewed, this is now a Health and Safety issue for the protection of the officers actually on duty in our streets...
I will only answer my 'hands free' mobile when I am ready to do so, not when the caller wants me to. And my ipaq CoPilot is either attached to the vents for me to glance at or somewhere else where I can view it.
Like any other control in a vehicle, I don't have to look at it to find it, I know the layout well enough to put my hands on them. Most people are blessed with COMMON SENSE, so use it.....

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