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Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 9:33 pm Post subject:
MR_TiGGer wrote:
I know what the highway code says, but in the real world on the roads of Great Britain, it's become a sign of courtesy and a thank you in the cases of commercial traffic.
My point was that mindset is the opposite in Europe "Stay out of my way or I'll crash into you
The 'real world' has a highway code, but people choose to ignore it and make up their own rules. Obviously they stick to it in Europe. I appreciate that the headlamp flash as a courtesy has become the norm, but it is dangerous to believe it has any other meaning than a warning of your presence. If you see a car about to pull out into your road space and you flash your headlamps to warn them, they may pull out in front of you and cause an accident and the driver would say "I though you were flashing me to come out". The highway code is there to create a standardised way for drivers to improve road safety with no ambiguity. _________________ Tommo...
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Thu May 04, 2006 11:48 pm Post subject:
999tommo wrote:
For some reason in the UK, over a number of years, the headlamp flash has unofficially become a signal meaning "you go first mate".
The highway code is there to create a standardised way for drivers to improve road safety with no ambiguity.
Then surely the highway code should be re-written to recognise that the de facto meaning of someone flashing their headlights means that you may go first if you consider it safe to do so.
The statement in the highway code that flashing your lights is merely a warning of your presence is misleading and should be removed. _________________ Gone fishing!
In that case all reference to speed limits should be removed too!! _________________ TTGO 700 (dead)
iPhone 3GS + TT holder
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Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 12:17 am Post subject:
No, I can see where Skippy is coming from.
Laws and rules have to have a basis in common sense and be accepted by the majority, or they will be ignored, with the consequent danger that others get ignored too.
The highway code is full of good rules and suggestions (although it annoys me that the suggestions are packaged to look like laws and rules when often they are nothing of the sort), but there are also some daft things in there.
Blindly accepting every new law, just because it is a law, makes for bad justice.
Joined: Apr 20, 2006 Posts: 94 Location: God knows!! Ask Jane
Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:10 am Post subject:
999tommo wrote:
MR_TiGGer wrote:
I know what the highway code says, but in the real world on the roads of Great Britain, it's become a sign of courtesy and a thank you in the cases of commercial traffic.
My point was that mindset is the opposite in Europe "Stay out of my way or I'll crash into you
The 'real world' has a highway code, but people choose to ignore it and make up their own rules. Obviously they stick to it in Europe. I appreciate that the headlamp flash as a courtesy has become the norm, but it is dangerous to believe it has any other meaning than a warning of your presence. If you see a car about to pull out into your road space and you flash your headlamps to warn them, they may pull out in front of you and cause an accident and the driver would say "I though you were flashing me to come out". The highway code is there to create a standardised way for drivers to improve road safety with no ambiguity.
I'm glad you're holding out for the highway code, but you've clearly missed my original point.
I only mentioned a minor point about flashing your headlights means the total opposite in Europe to here in the UK.
And because of the meaning has somehow been twisted away from the highway code, unless you're a regular reader of it then many like my self will have forgotten the written meaning and the accepted meaning in the "real world" are not the same.
This may lead to confusion or even an accident when driving abroad.
It's not a case of ignoring the law, it's simply everyone uses the same meaning otherwise it would be a nightmare on the M6, like it's not nearly that already!!
Until I returned from my 1st trip in France I really had no idea of the correct meaning of flashing your lights.
Only found out after I explained that I kept flashing to let someone onto a dual carridgeway, and I thought he was a moron cos he wouldn't move.
Turns out he must have thought I was a complete loony to keep flashing him saying repeatedly "I'm coming through, stay there"
How to change the mindset of a large percentage of drivers?? Hmmmm it's a toughie 8O
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Fri May 05, 2006 2:43 pm Post subject:
MR_TiGGer wrote:
How to change the mindset of a large percentage of drivers?? Hmmmm it's a toughie
The problem here is that the vast majority of the public last read the highway code, the day before their driving test. In recent years there have been numerous updates to keep abreast of legislation changes etc. I assume the only people to read the highway code regularly are driving instructors, advanced drivers and Police (even alot of them don't bother). As a Traffic Cop (and I get my fair share of stick just for having that job), I find it infuriating that a 17 year old will pass his/her driving test one day then feel they are bulletproof the next, totally ignoring a vast majority of what they have just been taught. The older you get (and I'm no spring chicken) the more you mellow and think "that's actually not a bad thing" and gradually take more and more laws on board.
Anyway, I know this thread has wandered somewhat away from it's intended focus, so I'll head off to my cosy corner until my next rant.
FWIW, I drive regularly in France and have just downloaded the French Speed Camera database (from www.alertegps.com) and will be using it on my TTOne this summer. This is not because I intend to travel at break-neck speed everywhere (very foolish with the Gendarmes about as a stern ticking off is not their bag) but because I like to soak up the scenery occasionally and don't want to get caught out.
I will be monitoring this thread with interest to see if anyone can give a definitive answer on whether or not GPS based camera databases are legal there. _________________ Tommo...
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 12:28 pm Post subject:
Just for info, I have sent an email on the subject of GPS based radar databases to Legifrance. This is a government website detailing points of law. Hopefully I should get a difinitive answer and will post the reply (translated) once received. _________________ Tommo...
Joined: Apr 20, 2006 Posts: 94 Location: God knows!! Ask Jane
Posted: Mon May 08, 2006 6:40 pm Post subject:
999tommo wrote:
Just for info, I have sent an email on the subject of GPS based radar databases to Legifrance. This is a government website detailing points of law. Hopefully I should get a difinitive answer and will post the reply (translated) once received.
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 172 Location: Sunny Spain
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:09 am Post subject:
Hi Everyone
If you have not already done so, please read my post in latest information
(They are legal) it may help answer a few questions for you all.
regards _________________ Takara GP56 igo primo 1.1
Dont rely on them use your brain as well
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 11:47 am Post subject:
etters wrote:
If you have not already done so, please read my post in latest information (They are legal) it may help answer a few questions for you all.
I appreciate that you say they are legal. Do you have an official quote from a Government agency or are you quoting one particular Police Officer. Individual viewpoints can change not only from area to area, but from Officer to Officer, as they do in the UK. I have sent an email now to two French Government agencies. The first which deals with legislation cannot help me (work that one out). They suggested I contact the Ministry of Transport, which I have and await a response which I will translate and post here.
I'm not for a minute saying you are wrong, but I would prefer to have something in writing that I can produce if ever stopped in France (not likely as I always drive sensibly ). _________________ Tommo...
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 172 Location: Sunny Spain
Posted: Wed May 10, 2006 12:24 pm Post subject:
What a good point you make, if you would like to go to (controleradar.org) it will give you the info that you want, I carry a copy of it in my car just in case I come across a nasty one,but so far no problems but then I have a french registered car.
Look forward to hearing what the dept of transport says, I did get the info from the gendamerie at Vence from an official at the station. _________________ Takara GP56 igo primo 1.1
Dont rely on them use your brain as well
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 3:16 pm Post subject:
etters wrote:
if you would like to go to (controleradar.org) it will give you the info that you want
I did visit this site and it makes reference to the Highway Code rule R413-15, however after translating this rule from Legifrance.com, it does not make any mention specifically of GPS based speed camera databases. I appreciate what the law says in relation to detecting or interfering with equipment used to monitor traffic speeds, but there is still the grey area over what 'detecting' actually means. I am still searching for something from a Government source which gives a clear decision.
Perhaps as you speak French, you could do some phoning or emailing. I am still waiting for the Ministry of Transport getting back to me. When they do, I have to rely on a translation site to enable me to read it. I speak French, but not sufficiently to understand legal jargon. _________________ Tommo...
Joined: Jan 18, 2005 Posts: 172 Location: Sunny Spain
Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:08 pm Post subject:
the first page on controleradar.org says (le GPS notamment 100% legal et efficace si la base de donnees est mise a jour, permet de prevenir de la presence des radars fixes uniquement, mais aussi les detecteurs de radars, illegaux.
I know what you are saying but I am sure that you must know that the GPS system with the camera's are not able to detect and are therefore not illegal in France.
The ability to know the Presence of the camera's, and the detection of them are two different things as stated by controleradar.org.
However I will go down to the Police station tomorrow and try and get something in writting for you and I will post it here as soon as I can.
regards _________________ Takara GP56 igo primo 1.1
Dont rely on them use your brain as well
Joined: Feb 07, 2006 Posts: 616 Location: Midlothian
Posted: Sat May 13, 2006 10:42 pm Post subject:
etters wrote:
the legal and effective GPS in particular 100% if the data base is updated, makes it possible to only prevent presence of the fixed, but also the detectors of radars, illegal radars.
Sorry, but this is what the Google translater made of your quote. I get the jist but it doesn't really make sense.
I believe the ov2 files I downloaded from www.alertegps.com cover not only the fixed radar sites, but also mobile radar sites. I may be wrong though.
I appreciate what you are saying and I don't want to say you are wrong as you are probably right. You know how it is though. I could create a website which tells you whatever I want to tell you. It doesn't mean it is accurate. Sorry if I am a pest (my wife says I am) but I just like to be sure. Working in law as I do, I wouldn't like to state something which I cannot prove. _________________ Tommo...
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