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Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:32 pm Post subject: Gatso 2: Big Brother Will Be Watching You
Source: The Register. Well it looks like George Orwell's Film 1984 is going to be a step closer to reality very soon. According to an Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) strategy document leaked to the Sunday Times, the 24x7 national vehicle movement database is now being built and will log every movement on the UK's roads and retain the data for at least two years.
The system, which will use Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR), and will be overseen from a control centre in Hendon, London, is a sort of 'Gatso 2' network, extending, enhancing and linking existing CCTV, ANPR and speedcam systems and databases.
Whilst I am can see the benefits of such a system in catching uninsured drivers and untaxed vehicles I wonder (and worry) what else this system could be used for? _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: Mar 26, 2004 Posts: 548 Location: East Midlands
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 10:54 pm Post subject:
I was in a newly fitted out Sainsbury filling station recently. On the back wall was a CCTV monitor showing the number plates of cars at the pumps. On the same screen, below the pump camera image, was another image of the same number plate but much clearer - possibly a comparison from a database, what was that about......?
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2005 11:09 pm Post subject:
spook51 wrote:
I was in a newly fitted out Sainsbury filling station recently. On the back wall was a CCTV monitor showing the number plates of cars at the pumps. On the same screen, below the pump camera image, was another image of the same number plate but much clearer - possibly a comparison from a database, what was that about......?
They use a CCTV system that can identify the number plate from an image and capture a high quality and sometimes computer interpreted version of it. They then share this data on drive-offs (bilking) etc between sites. They can't do PNC or DVLA look ups.
However if a vehicle has been involved in a bilking elsewhere it will flag up. _________________ Darren Griffin
Last edited by Darren on Wed Nov 16, 2005 9:40 am; edited 1 time in total
Its an interesting argument this one, I guess if you are a law abiding citizen, it should not matter if your whereabouts are being logged, but I agree, it just doesn't feel right.
Is this an overkill I ask myself, how much is this system going to cost to implement and run, after all its tax payers money, also I wonder how the hell is this system going to help with say uninsured drivers, will these cars actually be registered to the idiots who drive them, I think not, are the police going to send a traffic car out to bust them each time they appear on CCTV, I think not... so this makes me wonder, how useful are these, with the outcry over big brother, can they truly be justified.
Joined: 26/10/2002 10:38:36 Posts: 789 Location: Hong Kong
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:32 pm Post subject:
mikeprytherch wrote:
Its an interesting argument this one, I guess if you are a law abiding citizen, it should not matter if your whereabouts are being logged, but I agree, it just doesn't feel right.
Is this an overkill I ask myself, how much is this system going to cost to implement and run, after all its tax payers money, also I wonder how the hell is this system going to help with say uninsured drivers, will these cars actually be registered to the idiots who drive them, I think not, are the police going to send a traffic car out to bust them each time they appear on CCTV, I think not... so this makes me wonder, how useful are these, with the outcry over big brother, can they truly be justified.
I agree that you should have no worry if you are law abiding citizen.
I am one for the introduction of ID cards on the same principle.
On the same principle I am all for the installation of surveilance cameras in PUBLIC places.
I am sure the data will only be used/analysed for crime related incidence. If you are jsut courting your mistress in a remote hotel, I do not think your wife could get hold of the information.
The system may cost in the set up but in the long run it is going to benefit in the safety/security for public at large. _________________ Pc-Mobile
http://pc-mobile.net/gps.htm
Joined: Oct 05, 2005 Posts: 123 Location: Mmm...medway
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:55 pm Post subject:
I don't like the whole big brother thing... yet how many crimes could be cleared up quicker if they had a list of all the vehicles in an area at a certain time? The number of times you hear of a driver of a vehicle being sort and a patchy description. This way they'd have a list of potential suspects/witnesses to go to right away. Plus the tax, insurance and mot dodgers, people using stolen vehicles...
I'd rather not have it, but with the amount of scabby people out there abusing the system one way or another, and no chance of several thousand more police officers being employed and put onto the roads, this looks like the only other solution.
What continuously worries me about these so called security/order measures that law abiding citizens shouldn't worry about is that they should!
It is the 'law abiding citizens' who have their identity stolen who continuously have to justify themselves to various agencies. Any delay in apprehending the culprit intoduces error.
If your vehicle is shown to be somewhere where it is not (I use London Congestion and speed cameras as examples) it is almost up to you to prove who was driving and where your car was - often much much later than the 'offence' - yet you are expected to know your exact whereabouts (something the guilty are apparrently very good at!). I quote someone who got a speedng ticket on a stretch of road he used most days, regularly and at differrent times of the day. He couldn't believe that he had been so stupid - he knew the camera well. But in spite of the 'evidence' he was still sure that he wasn't speeding - the camera MUST have been faulty.
He was 'advised' that there was little he could do - just pay up and add the points to your licence.
Fortunately his car developed a fault - a re-occurrence of a previously fixed one - wait a minute it was only fixed on the day he was caught speeding. It wasn't him - but a mechanic 'borrowing' the car. He was fortunate, the garage had records and was able to prove he couldn't have been driving.
It is also the draconian methods used to enforce the problems. Yes we know that cars don't get taxed/insured, but wouldn't a fairer system be more appropriate. But as the proverbial 'law abiding citizen' he didn't keep exact details of his every movement, he even thought it must have been him!
Currently, if you forget (or are unable) to tax declare a vehicle off road a fine appears through your letterbox - you have little defence. Wouldn't it be fairer to still send out the letters, but just make you tax it within 28 days (but pay from when it was due - so you don't get away with it)
I give as an example of someone who would have been caught out, my sister. She was out of the country when her tax was due, and had gone too far in advance to renew early. So she passed the documentation on to my parents to pay for her.
Unfortunatley, what she had given them wasn't fully correct, and the Post Office rejected it. Fortunately, my parents, having a key to her home were able to obtain the correct papers.
Yes it was her mistake, but she was in a rush, it was amazing she actually remembered to make any arrangements, but would it have been fair?
We must have a justice system which is not only fair, but seen to be fair. That doesn't just mean being lenient with some, but also means being harder with others. We are rapidly moving towards mandatory justice, which by its nature cannot be adjusted to ensure fairness. To move away from this can only result in anarchy and public disorder, as the rule of law looses respect. We should learn from what happenned in some of the old Soviet States, where there were peoples uprisings (not all violent). Rule of law relies on the vast majority not having to be made to comply.
When will the 'idiots' who keep proposing and implementing these changes, realise that the 'criminals' they use as justification for the measures, are not as stupid as them, and will easily find ways to avoid detection.
Yes cameras have their place, and have allowed Police to assist and even save lives, but can you imagine a situation where an assault was merely filmed, the culprit identified by recognition software and procecuted. Why put an officer in danger, after all they have sufficient evidence for a conviction.
We (or at least the Police) seem to be proccupied with crime detection and prosecution (I do not blame the Police for this, I strongly believe it is forced on them). They should be making our streets safer. What happenned to prevention? I'll tell you what I think - A crime prevented would probably have been a crime which would have resulted in a conviction, and have a positive effect on the clear-up statistics. Prevent it, and it makes those statistics worse, simply because you increase the percentage of unsolved crimes.
Usually I would agree with the comments made,however there are instances whereby this ANPR system causes problems, I am aware of an incident whereby a person was arrested by the police following a reg number being identified as being circulated in connection with a drive off in the London area, the vehicle was seen in the Midlands and the driver stopped and detained,despite explanations offered at the time. The person was fingerprinted.photograped and DNA taken because of the arrest, it transpires the account given to the police was verified and the person released,it appears the reg no is being ghosted. The innocent owner has no recompense and of course the prints etc are on record against the name of an innocent driver!
Joined: 30/12/2002 17:36:20 Posts: 4912 Location: Oxfordshire, England, UK
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:42 pm Post subject:
The trouble is that the system won’t capture the very people the authorities say it will. If the vehicle is untaxed, uninsured, unMOTed, then do you really think that the owner will have registered it with the correct address at the DVLA?
Police vans with Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) equipment that flag up a problem vehicle that can be intercepted by police motorbike riders work well, but if you take the police interceptors out of the equation, then you’ll never catch them with a false address. 8O
I was chatting with my insurance broker the other day, and apparently the rules about needing to show a V5 registration document before getting number plates created at motorist shop have caused a new problem. All that is happening is that people are finding their vehicles’ number plates are removed and they’re getting speeding fines and congestion charge fines for places that they haven’t been to.
Regards, _________________ Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D
Joined: 26/10/2002 10:38:36 Posts: 789 Location: Hong Kong
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject:
Deterrence is always a good measure in crime prevention.
Sure a criminal will always find a way to beat the system but it will make it more difficult for them to do it.
Joined: May 01, 2005 Posts: 101 Location: Lancashire
Posted: Wed Nov 16, 2005 4:19 pm Post subject:
It is scary and there has been some intenational talk about the same thing but with mobiles... now thats scarryer.... ( if thats a word ).
Any way in the state in a particular town ( can't rember which but it was on one of the news services my site uses ) they employ people to drive around the town and home areas to ANR parked cars. If warrents or taxes etc are out standing then they simple tow the car way until its paid for etc.
Still - correct me if I am wrong but ANR has been in use by Traffic Master for some time now to calculate advarge traffic speeds etc although they 'say' they only use part of the reg it would not take a great lead to capture this info for the police.... may be thats how ( with the new DOT sensors ) the Police can roll a system like this out so quickly.
Come to think of it how many citys and towns have CCTV run by the local councils / police.... my point why worry ... its to late... its here already and has been for some time.
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