The Mapping Issue

OZ · Regular Visitor Joined: Mar 17, 2004 Posts: 165

Of course Dodgy, you are right. I suppose in fairness TomTom are like the meat in the sandwich here and Teleatlas, i would assume are not coming to the party either.

Dave · Posted: Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:39 pm Post subject:

It's all down to everyone trying to make money at the end of the day. Obviously TomTom have fealt that there was a large enough issue in the map data (somewhere) to substantiate releasing a newer version in later builds of the product.

Like TomTom have also fixed the 'blowing up' of a batch of GO's. It's progressive maintenance. Most companies won't recall products because it will bankrupt them, it's only the big companies like Sony, Vauxhall etc that can accomplish this.

At the end of the day, the license agreement between GPS company (aka TomTom) and GeoData provider (aka TeleAtlas) says that they're not allowed to offer updates to the map data unless they pay extra license royalties, so as the new devices that will appear on the shelve soon are going to be new and not officially in-use, it's possible for TomTom to update these to the latest build of their 'recompiled map data', but it's not possible to do the same or offer the same to existing customers as per the license agreement it dictates that this is then an 'upgrade' and license royalties to TeleAtlas are required.

You will probably also find that newer models will ship with newer versions of the TomTom GO program files, e.g. 4.40+.

Really the ultimate decision is down to TomTom and TeleAtlas. If the problem is TomTom's fault then an upgrade for existing users would cost TomTom. If the problem is down to badly compiled TeleAtlas maps (which I doubt) then the problem is down to TeleAtlas and they would lose the license revenue if an upgrade for existing users were allowed.

Judging by how the previous 'Open Letter' to TomTom went, I doubt there will be much movement on what is currently in place.

OZ · Regular Visitor Joined: Mar 17, 2004 Posts: 165

Dave, again very valid points. This has me thinking on one point you made about it probably isn't the quality of maps supplied by Teleatlas, which i tend to agree. Do you think that perhaps TomTom got it wrong?, this isn't a criticism, more an observation. After all they really wouldn't have known how the compression and setup would truely run in real live situations. Obviously they are not going to admit to this but it's hardly a crime, sure it's not ideal for us customers but perhaps we can hope that TomTom Go in the future will only get better as the company learn from their experiences of it out in the field. With hindsight perhaps they may have done it this, or that way. Ah hindsight is such a wonderful thing.

jdatkinson · Regular Visitor Joined: Oct 29, 2004 Posts: 63

I do understand the licensing issues and the costs involved, and up to a point accept that it is bad luck getting a Go with v314 in the same way that it is bad luck if one buys the 2004 atlas a week before the 2005 version hits the shelves. I am prepared to buy the latest version on SD card, if it represents a significant improvement, but TomTom a) will not say what, if any, the differences are, and , b) are unable to tell me which version of the maps will be on the SD card versions because it "depends on current stocks". They are really doing themselves out of a sale here. What is so outrageous about the idea of having either a CD or SD card version with the map version and date CLEARLY marked, along with differences from previous versions? The way TomTom are behaving may pass for normal in the GPS community, but it doesn't compare well with the expectations people have in the wider IT community, and it certainly isn't what I would call good customer support.

OZ · Regular Visitor Joined: Mar 17, 2004 Posts: 165

jd, i take on board what you say. I too have had a bit to say on this issue and personally i think TomTom are wrong. However i dont think it is totally down to them.
The more we all go into this the bigger the can of worms gets.
I am sure we all understand the economics of a decision by TomTom to bite the bullet and issue an update or whatever we want to call it, but sometimes it's not all about money, this could cost them big in customer feedback. Surely what they would spend in advertising to repair their image would cost a lot more than an upgrade release.
Saying this, i do find myself sitting on the fence a bit with each passing day, as there clearly is a lot more to this issue than TomTom's stance at this present time.

Dave · Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 10:57 am Post subject:

I don't know what the differences are between the map updates (if any perhaps), but knowing how 'bug fixes' go, everyone seems to be wanting the latest 3.9x version, but who knows if this is actually better than the original release which was actively tested by the TomTom beta community where the new maps probably weren't. The new version may turn out to be worse!

I haven't seen any comparisons between areas of the maps that are different between both versions, but there was obviously a reason behind TomTom changing the map version.

Personaly I wouldn't beat myself up about this too much. Unless there's a definitive guide as to what has changed between the map versions, and I doubt TomTom will release this to us.

jdatkinson · Regular Visitor Joined: Oct 29, 2004 Posts: 63

I accept that it is unlikely that TomTom will release information about the differences between map versions; i've already got the impression having been lurking about these forums for a few weeks that they are not the most helpful bunch of people, despite the fact that in Go they have released an excellent product with tremendous potential. I still do not understand why this is such a problem. I can go to the manufacturer's website for my router, digital camera, PDA and use Windows Update for my OS, and find out what the latest upgrades are to software / firmware and what these upgrades do without any difficultly, and yet the key feature of my Go (the accuracy of the mapping data and whether it is worth my while buying the Europe maps CD or a new GB map SD card) is shrouded in secrecy.

I don't know how TomTom's stance compares with other companies making in car navigation systems, but the one that sorts itself out and provides support comparable to other computer products will get my money next time round. Unfortunately, I don't think it will be TomTom.

Dave · Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 2:50 pm Post subject:

There's no secrecy in the European maps. They're available as per the website. No secrecy about SD cards either.

You can also download the latest program updates like you would with any router from TomTom's website. What you cannot do is download the map updates.

1) because of licensing issues
2) because of the physical size

jdatkinson · Regular Visitor Joined: Oct 29, 2004 Posts: 63

If there is no secrecy, then why have TomTom support declined to tell me which versions / what dates of the mapping data are supplied on the SD cards? All I want to be able to do is make an informed choice as to whether to make a purchase or not. Sorry to harp on about this, and I will not be posting again on this subject, but i'm offering to buy their products and they are not interested........

Dave · Posted: Sat Nov 13, 2004 9:05 pm Post subject:

wildcard · Occasional Visitor Joined: Nov 13, 2004 Posts: 44

Frazzle · Regular Visitor Joined: Nov 05, 2004 Posts: 66

Hi folks. I posted the following on the Expansys forum and it has caused some interest from Expansys moderators already. They are going to contact TT for a comment !

I thought you may be interested too :-)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

With regard to the New V390 Maps issue:

I forgot a little detail about upgrading to version 4.40 software......

I started out with version 4.21 software plus V300 maps and downloaded version 4.40 from TT. Part of the installation instructions said I needed to delete unecessary voices from my TTG 128Mb SD card in order to fit version 4.40 on the SD Card. I had forgotten all about this during the discussion on V390 maps.

If TT now supply V4.40 software and ALL the foreign languages on the 128Mb SD card then something needed to be reduced in size to make room. It rings true that the Maps have been further compressed to free up some SD card space. What we have to ask is.... by compression are we talking clever compression algorithms or just DELETION of some data such as some of the road names etc. Its worth thinking about as although we are aware of the correction to the M60 Toll road data, the version 390 MAY actually be inferior in other ways to the version 314.

Remember Tom Tom do not want the extra cost of a bigger SD card so they will do their best to cram the slightly larger V4.40 software on to the 128Mb disc even if it means degrading the maps a little :-

Its food for thought folks and doesnt give me a happy feeling.

For me, this issue isnt just about the map versions , its about Tom Tom as a company and its attitude to customers. Their logistics are in disarray and their customer support quality is variable to say the least.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Think about this.... we may actually be chasing inferior maps.... how ironic is that !

Juey · Occasional Visitor Joined: Sep 09, 2004 Posts: 46

Just my 2p worth..and this is the crux of most of the above comments.

If I spend hundreds of pounds on a NEW device that was only available in 2004. I expect the mapping to include streets that were built 7 years ago.

Did the box say 'maps upto date as of 1997'

Nope.

Therefore I feel this product has been mis-sold as it should have been badged 'magna carta edition'

Spoiling a really good product. Crying

Juey · Occasional Visitor Joined: Sep 09, 2004 Posts: 46

You can find out which map version you have by going into change preferences, page 5. Go into 'about ttg'. hey presto.

v3.14 in mine

shocker Evil or Very Mad

DavidW · Posted: Fri Nov 19, 2004 4:04 pm Post subject:

Without wanting to pour more fuel on the fire...

There's always errors in digital mapping - that's just as true of TeleAtlas (who TomTom use) as Navteq. No digital map will be up to date - sometimes errors creep in, sometimes the companies don't notice when updates are needed, and sometimes changes have happened since the map was built - particularly for things like restrictions on right turns and one way streets.

There certainly are updates from version to version. Those that know Dunstable in Bedfordshire well will know that the 'double doughnut' roundabouts at the junction of the A5 with Church Street / West Street (the latter is the B489, if I remember rightly) were taken out and replaced by traffic lights. The TomTom Navigator 2 maps had this as roundabouts, the TomTom Navigator 3 maps has the roundabouts deleted. TeleAtlas caught up on this change fairly quickly, possibly because it affects a trunk road.

Changes to more minor roads take rather longer to be incorporated. A friend of mine moved in 2001 to a new housing estate in Tattenhoe, Milton Keynes. In the Navigator 3 maps (based on December 2003 TeleAtlas data), something resembling her road finally appeared.

I appreciate that there is an ongoing controversy about maps for Go, as there's clearly different versions around. What remains uncertain is how significant the changes in the mapping data are. It may be that TomTom just rebuilt the same data in a more memory conscious way, but in so doing incorporated a minor patch from TeleAtlas to fix one or two things. I have my doubts that they've quietly slipped out a major map update, not least as if an update was available, I'd expect there to be a way of existing customers upgrading (as has happened with the major map updates incorporated in a new TomTom Navigator release on the Pocket PC).

I can only speculate. I don't have access to a Go, but there are other reasons for a map version increment than new mapping data being used.

As it is, all the Go GB maps are more up to date than those for TomTom Navigator 3 on the Pocket PC - which doesn't have M6 Toll at all. There's no sign of that being fixed until a future upgrade (if past history is anything to go by, a new version of TomTom Navigator on the Pocket PC will appear around April next year, possibly debuting at CeBIT).

If there is an error in something that changed years ago, report it to TeleAtlas. This is probably easiest using the reporting feature at support.tomtom.com. The more accurate and detailed a report, and the quicker it's received, the sooner the mapping is likely to be fixed.

Most problems can be worked around fairly easily, frustrating as they are. Ignoring an incorrect or illegal direction is often all it takes - at which point the system will likely give alternative directions. Sometimes if new roads have been introduced, it's a case of temporarily turning off guidance.

Meanwhile, if it's any consolation, TomTom's track record with Navigator for Pocket PC upgrades is good. TomTom's upgrade prices have been on the cheap side for navigation products in the past (Navigator 2 to Navigator 3 was either 49 Euros or free depending on how long you'd owned the product - in each case, plus a reasonable P&P charge).

Some OEM satellite navigation systems require you to buy a new map CD-ROM or DVD-ROM at full price if you wish to upgrade your maps - and those discs cost more than an additional country for a Go.

With TomTom settling on a common navigation platform, it may, in the future, be possible for them to issue more frequent map updates as hopefully they'll only need to build a map once for all their 'common platform' products. The only major product that's not using this code is Navigator 3 on the Pocket PC - and an early 'common platform' system for the Pocket PC has appeared in the form of the HP Navigation Pack.

Just to avoid misunderstanding - this is written without any specific knowledge of TomTom's future plans for Go; it's based purely on what has happened in the past and what TomTom have announced publicly of their future strategy.

David

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