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Reviewed: Garmin ecoRoute HD
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ESL
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Interestingly, the Eco Route HD web page, does not list any Renaults as being compatible with the device - you may be onto something there.

I wonder if Mike has a Renault?
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mikealder
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

No I wouldn't buy French as I prefer Swedish, the car I use is a Volvo V70 2,5L Petrol (and yes it does know how to drink petrol at an alarming rate) - Mike
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PhilHornby
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:38 pm    Post subject: Re: ODB2 Reply with quote

Chuffer4 wrote:
Sorry MaFt you are not correct !

Sorry Chuffer4, he is Exclamation

OBD's primary functionality is the diagnosis of emissions-related problems. Each car maker may re-use the same electrical interface for their own proprietary purposes, which they don't have to make public.

Renault gearbox issues (or Audi Q7 ride heights, or Seat Leon Power Steering sensitivity etc etc etc etc ...) aren't accessible to OBDii tools - you need the manufacturer's tool. (Or a suitable 3rd party one - google VCDS for the VW/Audi world)

and he wrote:
I spent a long time trying to diagnose gear change problems with my Renault and bought an interface and software to read the ODB data both of which were complaint.

My Freelander's Hill Descent System is currently immobilised by a fault - my el-cheapo Maxscan tool doesn't even know the vehicle has such a module, let alone how to reset it...but the vehicle is definitely OBDii compliant. I need to pay a dealer to access it - or do without. (Being a tight-fisted Yorkshireman, I've chosen the latter course of action Wink ).


Last edited by PhilHornby on Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PhilHornby
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikealder wrote:
No I wouldn't buy French as I prefer Swedish..


Swedish? - surely you mean Chinese? ...
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2010-08-02-geely-volvo_N.htm


Last edited by PhilHornby on Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PhilHornby
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 5:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ESL wrote:
Interestingly, the Eco Route HD web page, does not list any Renaults as being compatible with the device - you may be onto something there.

Garmin wrote:
"Renault vehicles tested experienced issues with the vehicle gauges when an OBD2 device was connected to the OBD2 port for an unpredictable period of time."


So it's not that it doesn't work - just that it stops the existing instruments working.

Is that a problem? Wink


Last edited by PhilHornby on Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:18 am; edited 1 time in total
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Chuffer4
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I completely agree that vehicle specific functions such as ABS, Air Bags and the like are not covered by the general ODB standards and yes you will always need a dealer to access these functions, and I never said it would, we are discussing the Garmin ecoRoute average fuel data readouts.

My first comments were about these fuel figures, which has also been discussed above by ESL, (who also could not get fuel related info) that they are always a calculated (guess) figure based on the air flow and throttle setting and pressure in the air box.
As a consequence of owning the interface and software for which my main purpose was to read standard and pending ( service 07 ) error codes, which it should but did not, I studied all of the other data available.
In my case it appears that the ODB standard code for RPM, engine load and manifold pressure are used more than once ( there are two sensors, one on the engine ECU and one on the transmission ECU and therefore 2 simultaneous readings ) as such the RPM and pressure readings fluctuate from say 10 to 80 constantly ( readings from each sensors ) and so making any meaningful MPG and averages completely imposable.
So the above device will not work satisfactorily on my car and probably not in some others as well because it's not compliant !.

Incidentally, if Mikes Volvo is Auto it probably has the same Honda gearbox as my Renault.

Darren stated........
In Europe, all petrol engined cars manufactured since 2001 have had to comply with the OBD-II standard.

Clearly not true as confirmed by the SAE J2012 workgroup chairman, I only wanted to make people aware before spending £75 there are problems because all cars do not HAVE to be completely ODB2 compliant and there is no law that says it should, they were merely invited to comply.

Technical Quote on my Renault.......

The most obvious failure is Service 07 - Pending DTCs. This vehicle always returns a response of $7F, $07, $11 which is a service not supported response for service 07. Any $7F response is known as a negative response, the remaining two bytes provide the details. As all OBDII compliant vehicles are required to support service 07, this vehicle therefore fails OBDII compliance.

It also responds with similar responses to services 06, 08 and 09.

It appears to support both engine and transmission ECUs, but invariably responses from the transmission ECU are either negative responses or responses that vary markedly from the same pid value from the engine ECU. The most obvious example being pid 0x04 Engine Load.

End
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PhilHornby
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 12:13 am    Post subject: Commission Directive 70/220/EEC, Annex I Reply with quote

Chuffer4 wrote:
Darren stated........
In Europe, all petrol engined cars manufactured since 2001 have had to comply with the OBD-II standard.


Commission Directive 70/220/EEC, Annex I requires vehicles "must be fitted with an on-board diagnostic (OBD) system for emission control in accordance with Annex XI."

See here: https://www.scantool.net/support/index.php?_m=knowledgebase&_a=viewarticle&kbarticleid=2&nav=0

(Note: it only mentions emission control - so no legal requirement to have an OBD system for the gearbox)

I can't locate the UK legislation that implements this specific EC Directive, but I found a Regulatory Impact Assessment (from 2006), of the directive requiring that "Heavy Vehicles" also have them. It refers to the earlier implementation in 2001.

It says:

Code:
"The Directives require heavy vehicles to incorporate a system of on-board
diagnostics (OBD) that monitor degradation or failure of the emissions control equipment. Similar provisions were introduced for light-duty vehicles from 2001. OBD systems provide early indication to the driver that a fault has occurred in the emissions control system thereby permitting the earliest repair and return to effective emission control.

Provision is also to be made for fault codes that identify the principal emission-related failure to be recorded on an on-board computer and for access to those fault codes to be unrestricted to repairers so as to aid effective diagnosis and repair of faults."


Last edited by PhilHornby on Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Chuffer4
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 2:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

note to PhilHornby

I am not disputing what you have said but I think you are missing my point.

Yes vehicles do have to have on board diagnostics, one of it's main functions is to ensure that the emissions are within the stated levels agreed at evaluation time and are shown on the registration document and are tested for during an MOT by stuffing a sensor up the exhaust pipe and measuring the gases present, not by connecting anything to the ODB socket, when running if the on board diagnostics detect a condition that it cannot adjust it's systems to keep the emissions within the stated levels a warning lamp must be displayed with " stop engine" or "service" Etc, all the other stuff like ABS is just a bonus.

What you have pointed to only confirms that a diagnostic system MUST be onboard to control emissions.

The point I am doing my best to make clear is that they do not all have to use the same method of retrieving the information to a external display device and they are not forced by law to do so, therefore it is possible, and it has been confirmed by ESL and mikealder in this post, that external data capture devices largely to enable a repair to the ignition system timing, air flow and fuel mixture etc will not work every time on all vehicles, and the Garmin ecRoute is making use of this data.

IF the vehicle is OBD11 compliant by the choice of the manufacturer, of course it will and the dealer will always have the correct equipment to carry out the task.

Because I was also given to understand initially that all vehicles HAD to be totally compliant and just thinking about emissions control, I was ready to take Renault to court because mine clearly is not, Renault even wrote to me stating I should "not connect anything to the ODB socket as this could cause need for reprogramming in the future". ( copies available on request. )

So, I can only quote again ...............

My name is Keith Armitage and I am the SAE J2012 workgroup chairman. The ISO equivalent standard is 15031-6. Both standards document industry agreements for diagnostic trouble codes. Each vehicle manufacturer makes their own decisions for which standards or portions of standards to apply to their vehicles.

This is the group that wrote the standard http://standards.sae.org/j2012_200204 which says vehicles MUST report errors, it does not say who should be able to read them other than the vehicle it's self, so if he says the manufacturer can choose .......... surely he must be correct !.

Note under Scope is says "Recommended Practice", there is a misconception that all vehicles must be totally compliant that I am attempting to rectify.
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

wow, all this debate to simply say that this:
Quote:
In Europe, all petrol engined cars manufactured since 2001 have had to comply with the OBD-II standard along with all diesel cars since 2003.


should really be this:
Quote:
In Europe, all petrol engined cars manufactured since 2001 have had to comply with the certain parts of the OBD-II standard along with all diesel cars since 2003.


Rolling Eyes

MaFt
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BigPerk
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 11:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
wow, all this debate to simply say
Confused Confused

I once checked the final draft of a computer consultant team's report for a major project. I found only[/i] one word had been added to a principal recommendation (by their manager) - the word "not". When I mentioned it to the whole team all hell broke loose! Wink

I think the very practical point behind this 'debate' is the advisability of checking compliance before to avoid wasting a significant sum of money.
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Horatio
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
Chuffer4 wrote:
CAUTION
It is not true to say that all cars HAVE to be ODB2 compatible, if the manufacture decides they don't want to comply they can not be forced to do so.


Actually, European law demands it for petrol cars since 2001 and diesel cars since 2003. American federal law has demanded it since 1996.

MaFt

While this is technically correct, it would seem that OBD2 is one of those standards that's open to some interpretation. Some devices work better with some cars. Renaults are notoriously troublesome, and I suspect dirty tricks are being used to ensure that their cars are only properly compatible with the official 'Clip' diagnostic tool.

I recently bought an ELM327 Bluetooth interface in order to use the Torque app on my Android mobile to read fault codes off the wife's Clio. It won't. Furthermore, it will only show about half of the readings from her Clio and my Laguna. Most of the interesting outputs (like fuel consumption) don't work at all. The ones that do work (e.g. engine RPM) are sluggish, often taking several seconds to update.

But to muddy the waters further, I've since read that a lot of the ELM327 devices are actually rip-offs, using a pirated version of the proper chip. While they claim to be the latest versions (1.4 at time of writing, I think) they're actually bootlegs of a much earlier release, with the software in the official chips having been successfully protected from piracy since then. That said, this could be propaganda from the makers of the real chip, who are rightly peeved at having the work that they've put into development stolen by unscrupulous third parties. This leaves me wondering whether it's worth taking a punt on a better quality Bluetooth OBD2 adapter or whether I'm onto a non-starter with our Renaults.
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Chuffer4
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Horatio

Been there done that, I first had a low cost clone wired interface and used it with some free and some decent software and got exactly as you did, fortunately I was able to return the interface as faulty and bought the proper item .............. and got exactly the same results.

I had spent many hours on the problem with my car and eventually found a freelance auto electrician who was ex Renault dealership and when discussing my issues hoping he would attempt a fix or at least have a look he said "it's no good me connecting to your car because Renault do their own thing with ODB and I will not be able to read anything of any use from it.".

He told me he had around £17000.00 worth of diagnostic kit updated regularly at considerable expense and Renault was just one of the manufactures that he was unable to service, so in that respect my £170.00 worth was no worse than his.

I have tested my kit on several friends cars, a Honda and Citroen and it worked perfectly but on a Landrover it did not work at all.

You are defiantly on a non-starter with your Renaults so I still can't fully agree with MaFt's latest comments that vehicles need to be compliant in any way
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuffer4 wrote:
I still can't fully agree with MaFt's latest comments that vehicles need to be compliant in any way


As PhilHornby pointed out, the EU law for compliance is with regards to emissions being available through the OBD. Doesn't say anything about Renault's own fault code's being available.

MaFt
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 21, 2011 6:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Chuffer4 wrote:
I had spent many hours on the problem with my car and eventually found a freelance auto electrician who was ex Renault dealership and when discussing my issues hoping he would attempt a fix or at least have a look he said "it's no good me connecting to your car because Renault do their own thing with ODB and I will not be able to read anything of any use from it.".

He told me he had around £17000.00 worth of diagnostic kit updated regularly at considerable expense and Renault was just one of the manufactures that he was unable to service, so in that respect my £170.00 worth was no worse than his.


My indie garage guy has an Autel kit (approx £3k) that works fine even with Renaults... Even allowing him to update the car's ID (sorry, can't recall the correct term!) on the replacement electronic handbrake's ECU to allow it to function properly on our car. Me thinks this guy was either exaggerating the £17k price or was ripped off somewhat!

I have a handheld Autel reader that is fine on my 2006 Focus but can't comment on it with the Renault as I got it post-ownership. The mdel I have was around £90 new but I managed to get it for £35 off eBay (bloke selling it thought it'd reset airbag light (which it doesn't) so sold it on obviously expecting more for it than he got Very Happy)

MaFt
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

"Standards are wonderful things, that's why we have so many of them" Smile


(and 'cos I'm bored watching all my new camera warnings batch converting to oggs here's a couple of totally off-topic examples from the audio industry:
1. When stereo first came along, the BBC decided to identify the left and right channels with RED for LEFT and GREEN for RIGHT (like the lights for port and starboard on a boat).
Then the Japanese hi-fi industry decided to mark all their stereo connections (such as phono plugs) with RED for RIGHT Rolling Eyes

2. The standard connector for balanced microphones etc is a three pin XLR.
Pin 1 is the earth and Europe decided on pin 2 'hot' and pin 3 'cold'.

Of course the Americans decided to do it the other way round, and stuck with it for years until they were finally forced to swap. Sad )
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