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Posted: Thu Nov 17, 2005 8:59 pm Post subject: Avoid E-Bowl
My Father being new to both Satnav and e-mail took the plunge and bought a Navman 550TM from E-Bowl, they advertised on their website that it came with a free speed camera database download.
He phoned and asked if the unit was not what he wanted could it be returned and was the database installed and was told yes on both counts.
Unit duly ordered, it arrives with the seal broken but he decides to look at the unit no safety camera database loaded, and the unit keeps locking up when he input postcodes.
Ok not the best approach but he e-mails them and tells them the unit doesn't work as expected and no camera database.
no response, he phones them and they try to refer him to Navman, also informs him that it is not company policy to discuss matters over phone - they deal by e-mail.
I've e-mailed on his behalf, attitude is get stuffed.
I did cc one e-mail to Pocket GPS World, given that it was your database they were passing of as the 'Free' Camera Database. Did they respond to you??
Also any reputable companies any one can recommend ??
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 2:33 pm Post subject:
I assume you are in UK. Distance Selling Regulations allow you to reject items bought on internet within stated period (I think 14 days). Email and write by post (by law they have to have postal address on their website) rejecting goods. Copy the letter to your credit card supplier and also tell them that you hold them liable for this failure under the Consumer Credit Act 1974.
Joined: Jun 13, 2005 Posts: 808 Location: The Deep South
Posted: Fri Nov 18, 2005 10:05 pm Post subject:
If we're being honest here, most companies offering a free safety camera database use the one from this site. It's the best! Either that or pay for one from TomTom.
Doug
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Thu Dec 01, 2005 8:30 pm Post subject: Re: Avoid E-Bowl
SafetyEngineer wrote:
I did cc one e-mail to Pocket GPS World, given that it was your database they were passing of as the 'Free' Camera Database. Did they respond to you??
They did, I advised them of our licence terms and they complied immediately. I wish other companies were as above board. _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 2 Location: www.e-bowl.co.uk
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Avoid E-Bowl
Dear Safety Engineer,
We are quite disappointed and shocked that you have posted a completly untrue story on this thread.
To clear our name and to prove that we acted swiftly,responsibly and honestly to solve your problem we have posted the e-mail which we sent to you, which was also sent as recorded delivery by Royal Mail, to who ever ordered this item.
We came to know about this posting only now and hence the delay in reply.
We would like to assure every one who is reading this thread, that we take back units and offer full refund if the unit is faulty. We also need to point out that we don't sell units on trial basis. This is clearly mentioned in our websites Terms and conditions which needs to be read and accepted before placing an order.
SafetyEngineer wrote:
He phoned and asked if the unit was not what he wanted could it be returned and was the database installed and was told yes on both counts.
The above statement is completly untrue, we didn't receive any calls from the customer before he made the purchase. The customer made his purchase just by reading the information from our website, which clearly states that the speed camera database needs to be downloaded from a third party website.
Unit duly ordered, it arrives with the seal broken
The customer wanted to return the item for a refund after using it stating there was no speed camera database installed in the unit.
The above statement regarding seal broken was invented by the customer, after we clarified our position that we don't install speed camera datbase and no where in our website is it mentioned that we do an installation.
SafetyEngineer wrote:
So
Ok not the best approach but he e-mails them and tells them the unit doesn't work as expected and no camera database.
no response, he phones them and they try to refer him to Navman, also informs him that it is not company policy to discuss matters over phone - they deal by e-mail.
I've e-mailed on his behalf, attitude is get stuffed.
We replied in detail to 2 e-mails from the customer and both of them were replied with in 3 hours of receiving the customer complaint. How quicker can any one try to resolve a issue?
We are puzzled to know where our "attitude is to get stuffed"
We were trying to help the customer to use the unit, when he phoned up but he refused to take any instructions on how to use it and wanted a refund. We had to tell him to explain in detail what he thinks is the problem in an e-mail for us to decide whether the unit is faulty.
Please see below the e-mail from the customer and the response we gave.
E-Mail from customer
On Wednesday, November 16, 2005, at 08:54 pm, <Name Removed> wrote:
Dear Customer Support
After our telephone conversation and discussion with Trading Standards today.
1. The unit as described in our previous telephone conversation 'locks' intermittently when trying to access the address finder. As stated in the Sale of Goods and Services Act my contract is with yourself NOT the manufacturer. I am formally rejecting the goods as faulty, given the short (reasonable) time period in discovering a fault I am entitled to a full refund.
2. The unit does not have the speed camera database loaded, no information was provided with the unit, also having looked at your website you do not make it clear that the database is a third party application. The implied contract is that this is an application that you are not charging for.
3. The unit arrived with the seal already broken, again leading me to assume that the unit had the speed camera database installed.
4. Your website states amongst the features " You have 5-digit postcode address search,..." The unit only accepts four digits.
In short and to re-iterate this unit does not do what it was bought for and as such is not of merchantable quality and I am formally rejecting these goods.
I require a prompt resoponse in this matter In the interest of easing communication my mobile phone number is:< Removed>.
Regards
<Name Removed>
==========
E-Bowl's response to this e-mail
From: E-Bowl Customer Support <support@e-bowl.co.uk>
Date: Thu Nov 17, 2005 10:07:01 am Europe/London
To: < E-mail address removed to comply with data protection act>
Attachments: There is 1 attachment
Dear Mr <Name Removed in the whole communication to comply with data protection act>
Thank you for your e-mail.
Before replying to your e-mail point by point. We would like to assure you that we are here to offer exceptional customer service to our customers. And please be assured that if your Navman ICN 550 is genuinely faulty, you will be offered a full refund with out any delay.
1. In your e-mail dated 15/11/05, all you mentioned about the fault was "The unit doesn't work as expected" this is not a sufficient description of a problem that you are facing. Some of the customers have difficulties following the instructions in using a GPS unit. For such customers manufacturers customer support line is the best option for their queries as the manufacturers are better equipped. We offered you the details of Navman Technical support as an option for you to resolve your issues.
At no point we tried to tell you that your contract was with the manufacturer and not with us.
When you called us on telephone on 16/11/05, you were asked whether the manufacturer's security seal was intact, you admitted that the seal was not intact as you have taken out the product to use.
Then you mentioned about the speed camera installation and wanted a refund as it is not installed. When we clarified our position on the speed camera database and then you mentioned that there is a fault with the unit and wanted a refund, we requested you to send us the full details of the fault by e-mail so that we can get further advise from the manufacturer whether it is a manufacturing defect.
This is a normal operating procedure. We cannot just accept the unit as faulty based on the face value of your claim.
Regarding your claim that the unit intermittently locks when you access the address finder,
We have contacted the manufacturer and their reply is as follows
"If you tap the address finder repeatedly in a short interval of time before it can respond, then the unit will respond in the way you describe. This is not a fault or manufacturing defect. If you tap the unit once and wait, it will respond as you expect."
2. Regarding your claim about the speed camera database.
At no point on the product description of Navman ICN 550, is it mentioned that we offer an installation service. Please see enclosed PDF which is a screen shot of the page which you read before placing the order. In the PDF document on page 3, line number 4, it is clearly mentioned that the Speed Camera locations have to be downloaded from a third party website. No where the words "install" and "speed camera" are next to each other in the product description.
We have a customer support number and also an e-mail contact (normally replied with in few hours ) to clarify any details about a product.
You never contacted us with a pre-sales query regarding the speed camera database.
We cannot be held responsible for your misinterpretations/assumptions.
Further to your e-mail to pocketgpsworld, we were contacted by them and as per their request we have removed the link pointing to their website/speed camera database. This is why we have included the PDF document which is the copy of the site at the time you placed your order.
3. Regarding your claim regarding broken seal.
We strongly refute your claim. We run a small operation with limited staff. We have stringent in house procedures to check goods before they are despatched to the customers. We have documented evidence that the unit was manually checked before despatch and the seals were intact. We have this procedure to avoid customers getting used/opened or second hand goods. We only sell brand new goods.
If the unit had a broken manufacturer's seal, it would have been sent back to the manufacturer and not to you, the customer.
Please note: You never mentioned this at any time during your telephone conversation with me on 16/11/05.
Please note that there are 2 individually sealed boxes in the main carton (outer carton). The outer carton is not sealed by the manufacturer. The inner carton which contains the Traffic module has a seal so is the ICN 550 unit's box. I am the one who despatched your order and I have personally checked the seal and entered the serial number of the unit against your order. I can assure you the seals were intact at the time of despatch.
4. Regarding your claim for 5 digit post code.
This information regarding 5 digit post code is provided to us by the manufacturer. The manufacturer stands by the claim about 5 digit postcode.
Here is the explanation of what constitutes 5 digit postcode search.
UK postcodes can have Maximum 7 digits and it is separated in to two parts. The first part contains a maximum 4 digits and the second part consists of 3 digits
Navman ICN 550 can take the 4 digits of part one and the first numerical digit of the second part. It will not take the last 2 digits.
Example 1
RG10 5QS
Then you will be able to enter the first 4 digits and the first numerical digit of the second part.
i.e RG10 5
Example 2
In case of postcodes which have 3 digits in the first part
<example changed as original example had customer's postcode>
BR1 3YN
Then you will be able to enter 3 digits of the first part and first numerical digit in the second part.
BR1 3
So in our opinion the unit is not faulty and we cannot accept your claim for a refund.
We hope we have given you a prompt reply. Feel free to e-mail us if you have any more queries.
=====
SafetyEngineer wrote:
also informs him that it is not company policy to discuss matters over phone - they deal by e-mail.
The reason why we ask customers to communicate by e-mail in case of a problem, is that we can clearly understand what one another says. And also no one can twist the truth by saying "I was told on the phone this, that and the other".
The readers can decide what the truth is by reading both the e-mails. We have clarified our position. We will not be posting any more replies in this thread regarding this issue.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 2:26 pm Post subject:
Krishna
I am afraid that, whilst you may feel hard done by (and I would agree with you on face value) the fact is that the distance selling regulations simply don't allow you to impose a term in the contract that refuses to allow the return of the item unless it is faulty. Your customers have a cooling off period whether you like it or not. That is one of the things that you have to put up with as a distance seller.
Joined: Dec 02, 2005 Posts: 2 Location: www.e-bowl.co.uk
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:06 pm Post subject:
peterc10 wrote:
Krishna
I am afraid that, whilst you may feel hard done by (and I would agree with you on face value) the fact is that the distance selling regulations simply don't allow you to impose a term in the contract that refuses to allow the return of the item unless it is faulty. Your customers have a cooling off period whether you like it or not. That is one of the things that you have to put up with as a distance seller.
Hi Peterc
This reply is to clarify our position regarding Distance selling regulation.
We do honour Distance selling regulation and accept cancellations based on Distance selling regulation.
Distance selling regulation doesn't give the consumer the right to use the unit and send it back for a refund.This particular case discussed in this thread, has nothing to do with Distance selling regulation.
The cooling off period mentioned by you, is there for the customer to change his mind about his need for the product and cancel the order. It is not a trial period for the customer to use the items ordered, then decide that he din't want the item and cancel the order.
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Fri Dec 02, 2005 4:36 pm Post subject:
Krishna wrote:
Distance selling regulation doesn't give the consumer the right to use the unit and send it back for a refund.
It is not a trial period for the customer to use the items ordered, then decide that he din't want the item and cancel the order.
Well, I'm not a lawyer but here is the definition given on the Department of Trade and Industry's website which appears to be at odds with what you say.
Department of Trade and Industry wrote:
The consumer has a cooling-off period of 7 working days. The aim of the cooling-off period is to give consumers an opportunity to examine the goods or services being offered, as they would have when buying in a shop.
Maybe you should allow the customer to return the goods (I presume they are still in "as new" condition) and give a full refund. Regardless of who is right or wrong, it would be a nice good will gesture and a little good will goes a long way in this forum. :D _________________ Gone fishing!
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Sat Dec 03, 2005 1:55 am Post subject:
Krishna
I have actually read the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) Regulations (2000), to give them their full title, and I am afraid your interpretation is simply not correct. Regulation 10 gives the right to cancel. Regulation 17 sets out what the consumer must do to exercise that right. He is obliged to "retain possession" and "take reasonable care" of the goods (17(2)). There is no suggestion that he is not entitled to try them out. How else would he know whether they are suitable for his use?
The only exceptions are set out in Regulation 13 and I do not believe that this sat nav system falls within those exceptions.
I know that many e-tailers hate these regs but I am afraid you are stuck with them.
Posted: Today Post subject: Pocket GPS Advertising
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