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French fixed cameras
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b33jay
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Joined: Apr 05, 2012
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:36 pm    Post subject: French fixed cameras Reply with quote

On a recent visit to France I noticed a number of French fixed cameras on single carriageway roads are shown as operating in one direction whereas, in fact, they are bi-directional, operating in both directions. This may be down to being reported as one directional according to the side of the road they are located but it seems that many are the type that is bi-directional.

So, to my dismay, I was flashed. My Garmin, with PSGPSW cameras on a card, showed the grey top band camera warning as did CamerAlert on the phone and I had seen the usual warning sign some distance before the camera. I had been following a large artic truck for some distance at a steady 80 kph so steady I assumed it was on cruise control. I expected it to slow somewhat as it approached the camera but it didn't and I got flashed as I passed the camera on the opposite side of the road. I don't know whether the truck got flashed as it would have blocked my view.
Once home, I downloaded the trip history from the Garmin to Basecamp and the 385metre stretch in which the camera was located gave my average speed as 80kph. In fact, my speed over large stretches across France was close up to 80kph with the odd 81 and 83 kph.

So what happened? I can only assume my speed surged very briefly to the 86kph recorded as I passed the camera. So ironic having seen the warning sign and having two camera warnings and thinking I was within the limit..

France is now issuing Penalty Notices in English as required under the Cross Border Agreement.
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b33jay
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 2:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Camera type third generation Mesta 210C

http://tinyurl.com/y5a4tnlt

more than half installed are bi-directional.
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 5:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you had a ticket for it? Gatso's in the UK often flash for both sides of the road but they generally don't issue tickets for those...

MaFt
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sussamb
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agreed, just because you were flashed it doesn't mean you'll get a ticket. You can often set off UK gatsos on the wrong side, also things like bikes on roofs, top boxes etc can confuse them.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 28, 2019 6:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've flashed a couple of digital Gatsos 'on t'other side' several times and not had a ticket (yet). It was Kojak with a Kodak that caught me around Pevensey castle.
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b33jay
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have a ticket, an English version of the Avis de Contravention and proof that this camera works in both directions. First speeding ticket in 63 years.

https://tinyurl.com/y5rzodr7

Clocked at 86 kph reduced to 81 kph 'vitesse retinue' - penalty 45 by 23 July and can pay online by card.

I just cannot believe I was doing 86. I don't speed and was happy to cruise at 80 kph throughout my trip. My trip history clearly shows an average of 80kpg over the 385 metre stretch that includes. The Garmin pinged the camera warning but I don't recall an overspeed warning, and unfortunately, I had the Cameralert on the phone with 'ignore cameras in other direction' turned on - that will not happen again. However, if I wasn't exceeding the limit the only alternative is a faulty speed camera which I ain't going to run with 'cos my French ain't that good.!

I also use a French website similar to PGPSW where the types of camera are listed by type. The latest Mesta 21C camera can operate in both directions and of 1700+ in service 1100+ are bi-directional with ongoing conversions to the rest. The camera in my case shows as a bi-directional on that website's map!
I have posted amendments to bi-directional for this other cameras that I have checked on the rest of my trip. I think people reporting French cameras are assuming that the side of the road they are on indicates the direction of operation which can be wrong.[/url]
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Kremmen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This is a situation where a dashcam with GPS logging is a good way of checking your speed after the event.

We know the French love us Engish. Clock the speed and add 10%

I can recommend the Viofo A119 V2 which I have and has now been improved with a V3 that is getting good reviews. Laughing
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Kremmen
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PostPosted: Sun Jun 30, 2019 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hmmm, a few typos and I can't edit it Sad

Smiley goes after the French English jibe, with English spelt wrong.
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b33jay
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 10:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kremmen wrote:
This is a situation where a dashcam with GPS logging is a good way of checking your speed after the event.

We know the French love us Engish. Clock the speed and add 10%

I can recommend the Viofo A119 V2 which I have and has now been improved with a V3 that is getting good reviews. Laughing


The French use +5 kph as a margin of tolerance in limits up to 100 kph and 5% in higher limits. It's a legal definition not an advisory or recmmended tolerance.

My penalty notice specifically states "speed checked at 86 kph - speed used 81 kph" The notice even includes the date of the last verification.

I have my speed logged at 80 kph on Garmin Basecamp but trying to dispute the accuracy of the measuring device will achieve as much in France as it would in the UK -precisely nothing.

French fixed speed cameras do not know the nationality of the vehicle being recorded so have no reason to love or hate anybody Rolling Eyes
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Kremmen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree, you'll not get away with it, but if you're anything like me I'd like to rerun that section and see what speed I was actually doing from a trusty GPS source.

I may have read it wrong but you're mentioning an average of 80kph. I wonder if those cameras are both average and instant. That would be a clever camera, check point to point and your current speed.

Double gotcha.
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b33jay
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kremmen wrote:
I agree, you'll not get away with it, but if you're anything like me I'd like to rerun that section and see what speed I was actually doing from a trusty GPS source.

I may have read it wrong but you're mentioning an average of 80kph. I wonder if those cameras are both average and instant. That would be a clever camera, check point to point and your current speed.

Double gotcha.


Basecamp records trip history in legs of variable length, time and average speed. The leg within which the speed camera was located was 374m taking 11 secs which averages out at 80 kph. It appears that there is no way of determining speed at a specific point in a leg.

I assume that my speed varied slightly over the leg and I was unlucky enough to hit the camera sweet spot at 86 kph despite the average over the leg being 80 kph. The next leg was another 350+ metres and also 80 kph average. But I still can't believe that I got up to 86.

My biggest mistake was being too close (25 metres) behind a large artic truck which blocked my view ahead. Under normal conditions I would spotted the camera which CamerAlert and Garmin had indicated and double checked my speed on the approach.
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Kremmen
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ah right, so it's Basecamp data that has your average. Missed that on my first speed read.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

80kph = 22.22m/sec. At 25m you were 1.13 seconds behind the truck and only a fool breaks the two second rule. Shocked Very Happy

I still find it hard to believe that if basecamp has your at 80 over that stretch that any of your instantaneous speeds would have been as high as 86.

Hang on a mo, there's something wrong somewhere and it might be my calcs below.
374m in 11 seconds is 34m/sec. 34*60*60/1000 = 122kph
11 seconds @80kph = 244m not 374
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dales
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But Basecamp's speed calculations are none too accurate.

That's because it takes the leg distance and divides it by the quoted time for the leg, to work out the speed.

The answer is therefore subject to considerable rounding / margin of error.

For example a recent track of mine had a leg of 157 feet covered in 1 second, and Basecamp worked out I was doing 107 mph over that leg (although I was actuall cruising at 55 mph.

Now if the leg time had been more accurately recorded, it might have been 1.4 seconds ie 76 mph, still erroneous but it shows how roundings do matter.

But another thing is that the previous 1 second leg showed 0 feet travelled.
So taking the 2 legs together gives 53 mph - ie about right.

In b33jay's case, his 10 second leg might actually be closer to 9.5 or 10.5 seconds ie subject to a potential rounding error of 5% either way.

Basecamp's leg speed readings are not to be taken as accurate.

Dales.
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes I can see that, but even if you take rounding into consideration 374 m in either 10 or 12 seconds is way in excess of the 80 that B33J calculated.
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