The Real Facts About Motorway Stealth Cameras

[Guivre46]

I have read that all digital 'rule enforcement cameras' are capable of ANPR. I just wonder if rule enforcement is the acceptable way of quietly getting yet more information on our movements? Should there be any limits on information gathering that is justified as combating crime and terrorism? I'm just getting a little perturbed about the extent of state surveillance.
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Mike R [aka Wyvern46]
Go 530T - unsupported
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Kia In-dash Tomtom

[M8TJT]

[fruit]

[sussamb]

[Guivre46]

The other thing, of course, is the possibility of charging for road use that keeps coming up for consideration. That will need a lot of cameras. I think we would all agree that new sources of tax income is a government priority, but one that no political party is discussing publicly.
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Mike R [aka Wyvern46]
Go 530T - unsupported
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[wise1]

I am personally puzzled by this thread with so many advocates for keeping to the speed limit... Especially on a site that promotes speed camera alerts.

There are two users of such systems:

ones who wish to always stick to the speed limit and need confirmation of the speed limit.

The others who like to break the speed limit but be alerted to a camera position to avoid prosecution.

So going by this thread it looks to me that most responders consider themselves to be in the former category?

My issue with Hadecs3 isnt the implementation of variable speed limits and enforcement - perfectly agree with that. My issue is having gantry cameras over an entire stretch of motorway, but only having one set active during normal conditions (aka 70mph with no variable limit enforcement) This is the case on the M25 today between junction 26 and 27. Not sure if NIP's are being sent, but they do flash.

This puts drivers into a false sense of security traveling between non active gantry's, only to be flashed ona single set. No consistency and stinks of profiteering.

[Kremmen]

I do tend to stick to the speed limits and on motorways I'm quite happy to plod along at 60 often in with the trucks.

However, modern cars are so quiet and smooth that I do sometimes find myself drifting over 30 in places and the camera alert reminds me to glance at the speedo and adjust if necessary.
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[alan_sh]

[mrfrank]

[Kremmen]

I think they are, or at least they were last summer when I went round the M25 from the M23 towards Heathrow, clockwise, when they first appeared.
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[brianharbord]

Nice to read a sensible article on this topic, but is the use of the word "Steal" in the title (instead of "Stealth") deliberate or a Freudian slip?

There is one significant error in your note - the use of VMSL (Variable Mandatory Speed Limit) enforcement to encourage compliance with the NSL started long before the 2008 date you mentioned.

The first VMSL enforcement system, developed for the M25 Controlled Motorway Pilot (J11-15) in the early '90s and based on Gatso "wet-film" technology, enforced all of the lower limits (20, 30, 40, 50 & 60) displayed on the signals AND the 70mph limit when the signal was blank or the NSL roundel was displayed. ACPO and the Met and Surrey Police, who staffed the "M25 Joint Enforcement Unit", insisted that at least 10% of the offences processed had to be NSL infringements, as these had a clear link to safety whereas the lower limits were for traffic management.

In practice significantly more than 10% of the offences related to the NSL as compliance with the lower limits was very good once the cameras started flashing and the more serious offenders started appearing in the Courts and local papers.

The operation of the M25 scheme was closely monitored and enforcement thresholds varied to deliver the level of compliance needed. It was found that traffic speeds were very close to the enforcement threshold, so using the ACPO "10%+2" gave actual speeds around 55mph when the 50 was displayed, very close to the 56mph which gave optimum throughput!

When the threshold was raised the average speed of the traffic increased to the new higher value over a period of a couple of months as drivers increased their speeds until the cameras started flashing. If the threshold was lowered and the camera flash rate therefore increased, drivers responded by reducing their speeds in a couple of days!

Adjusting the enforcement thresholds therefore gives the HA a powerful tool to manage the traffic, but the HA and the Police always insisted that the ACPO "10%+2" guidelines were not breached.

The same "wet-film" system was used on the M25 J10-11 and J15-16 extensions. In the late '90s the Government's "Smarter Roads" programme proposed the development of a digital enforcement system, which became known as HADECS. The "Smarter Roads" programme became part of the "Ten Year Transport Plan" which included the ATM Pilot on the M42. This went live in the mid 2000s and included the first generation HADECS which, as you state, could enforce the NSL. ATM was renamed as Managed Motorways, which the current co-alition Government has renamed "Smarter Motorways", completing the circle.

One of the key lessons learnt on the M25 was that very few cameras and low levels of enforcement were just as effective as many more cameras and much higher levels of prosecution, provided drivers were not aware of where cameras were and which cameras were in use. If the current furore to have the cameras painted yellow succeeds, many more cameras will be needed and many more NIPs will be produced to maintain compliance, so the AA, RAC The Times and drivers in general should be careful what they wish for....

[Kremmen]

Very good write up

I've been using the M25 western section ( 11 to 15 ) weekdays from early 1999, which is before the cameras appeared in 2004, up to last September.

In all that time I've never seen a flashing camera even though I've seen and been overtaken by cars travelling at 60+ when they showed 40. That of course was only possible when the 40 was set a junction or 2 in advance to slow traffic as there was a queue ahead.

There is one series of cameras on a gantry just before J15 clockwise at a point where the carriageway is 6 lanes. The outer 3 lanes are for proceeding to J16 and those lanes were usually very slow or stationary. The inner 3 lanes were the slip lanes for the M4 and were usually almost empty or very free flowing. As a result 99% of vehicles (including me officer) often did 60 as it was clear.
In all that time (10 years) I've never had a NIP.
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[vapourtrailer]

Just seen one of these HADECS 3 cameras 'go off' on the M1 northbound. Saw it flash twice in my mirror. The flashes came from very near the Smart gantry column at the hard shoulder, so it fits the description. There was no reduced limit showing at the time. It wasn't flashing me (I hope) cos I was about 1/2 mile up the road when I saw it fire. Can't give an exact location - so no prize - but I estimate it to be within a couple of miles of J27, A608, in the 4 lane section.
I'll review my dashcam footage over the weekend to see if I can spot it and will post a photo if I can get a decent still of it.
Probability of there being another looking southbound on the same gantry is fairly high, I would think, although never noticed any prior to today.
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Ian

[Kremmen]

Some years ago I had the same issue on a motorway where I saw a camera flash at a site that hadn't been picked up on my SatNav but not knowing the area I couldn't report it with any accuracy.

Trying to identify the gantry afterwards in Google is impossible.
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Garmin 2599 LMT-D (Indoor test rig)
DashCam:
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Car Average MPG :

[marksfish]

Seems like they are installed and working on the M1 at Nottingham now. I was travelling at about 85pmh yesterday Northbound, no speed limits alight on the gantries and in my peripheral vision I saw 2 white flashes. When coming Southbound again, I had a good look and yes, they are mounted on the gantries. Are they live now or being tested? Will probably soon find out
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Garmin Drivesmart 51 LMT-D Europe

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