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SPECS3 Camera
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pawsey
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 22, 2014 11:27 pm    Post subject: SPECS3 Camera Reply with quote

Apologies if this has been asked before or if we have posted incorrectly. Please help settle an argument Smile

We've noticed that on certain stretches of the motorway M1 for instance, where the speed limit is enforced by the SPECS3 system, there maybe a combination of gantries containing Front or Rear facing cameras (some gantries contain both Front and Rear.

Reading the SPECS3 brochure here:

http://www.vysionics.com/cms/assets/1/specs3%20brochure.pdf

We see that the on Page 4 of the brochure there is a Technical specification list. In the list we find the statement:

"Camera Orientation. Forward or Rear facing (paired cameras must be the same orientation)."

Should we understand by this that a car passing two successive gantries one where cameras are forward facing only and the other rear facing only will not be recorded since "(paired cameras must be the same orientation)."?
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It would appear so. But what does the HO type approval say about them, and how lucky do we feel?
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aj2052
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 23, 2014 12:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I would have thought a pair was an Entry and Exit Pair for added accuracy, assuming that you could only be read over one pair and not over two adjacent pairs i.e. one forward Entry and one rear facing exit on an a adjacent pair or vicer versa
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chas921
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:15 pm    Post subject: Exit Cameras Reply with quote

The new SPECS3 and SPECS(POD) are now interconnected via ADSL/Wireles/3G ect, over a wider area, and can be enabled/disabled at will by the controlling authority HQ. They are no longer individually wire connected in pairs, along the same carriageway, which alleviates the "changing lane" theory to avoid capture?

That said, to take a time distance measurement, you must have a "Paired camera" along a measured baseline distance, and although the new cameras can be 14.4 mts of axis to the lane, ie one camera can be mounted on a verge pole monitoring lane 3 of a Motorway, lane 3 should be paired to another camera further along the road, monitoring the same lane. Now if due to road works, lane 3 becomes lane 2 due to contraflow, the paired camera would be in lane 2, and lane 3 disabled! That seems acceptable. But if the road maintained its 3 lanes, how then, as the new literature tries to make us believe, that any lane out can still capture you. They rushed out the first systems with fault. I don't believe that a Lane 3 SPECS3 entry camera, can detect you via the lane 1 camera further along, unless lane 3 &1 are specifically paired? Is it possible to pair with more than one exit camera, as pair normally means "TWO"?

Maybe someone could test the theory by using their mobile phone on this one. Is it possible to pair with two different headsets at the same time, with audio coming from both at the same time, or can you only select just the one?
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Last edited by chas921 on Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 2:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why can they not 'pair a camera in (say) lane 3 with any of the later ones covering all three lanes? The difference in distance (perhaps 10 metres)would be tiny compared with the difference in distance between the two sets of cams (several hundreds of metres). Is my memory letting me down, or don't specs 3 work with just one cam covering all three (or more) lanes?
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chas921
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SPECS3 cameras have a wider envelope for positioning, Up to 10 Mts high and 14.4 Mtrs of axis (aside) to the lane being monitored, but wherever I see SPECS, generally there is one camera per lane. There must be a reason for this.
Im not sure if the camera is designed to monitor all three lanes, or is approved to be able to do so! That would be a problem for motorists.

Certificates of calibration show site code reference numbers, and a baseline length. This is the distance over which the calculations are made. If there are 3 cameras at the entry point to each site (remember there may be 5 sites in succession) I would assume there are 3 paired cameras, at the sites exit, ie lane 1 to lane 1 and lane 3 to lane 3. not lane 3 to lane 1 for example unless lanes 2 & 3 are coned off due to surface maintenance.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It was a long time urban myth that changing lanes would fool the cameras. Why should it?
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bmuskett
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 8:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not an urban myth, but not true any longer.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, Ok, so it wasn't an urban myth, but that does not detract from the fact that Chas's assumption that they only work in the same lane is incorrect as your links indicate.
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chas921
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 11:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SPECS1 was only Home Office Type Approved (HOTA) for single lane use, therefore, if you changed lanes, you changed to a different exit camera. That was the anomaly/loop that prevented the NIP from arriving? This was supposedly fixed in SPECS2?

Why then does SPECS3 clearly state that any camera can be used, to prevent lane swapping, and to stop the urban myth! Is there still a loop hole that cant be fixed?

The authorities, from their control centres can pair any SPECS3 to any other camera, to create a zone, with a baseline between TWO CAMERAS. Doesn't matter how many pairs of cameras there are along your stretch of road, the offence is between any two paired cameras. All the system does is take a picture of the number plate, date, time. It does not record your speed. At the exit camera it does the same. The ANPR is then verified, Taxation ect, and the system also works out by time difference, how long it took from start camera to exit camera in the zone. If you arrive at the exit camera in less time than is calibrated, it assumes your speeding, works out the speed, and sends a NIP to the registered keeper. If you don't speed no problem. If you don't have a plate (up-front) the camera detects that too, that's why rear facing cameras were introduced. the photograph is then assessed. If the number plate is too dirty after a long drive, that itself is still an offence. You will be found.

All I'm trying to do here is understand the underlying technology. These cameras are not cheap, yet they still have one over each lane. You could effectively pair one camera In Cardiff with One in London, to see if your nipping along the M4 a little too quick. Thats an extreme thought, but I don't accept that one camera is paired to 3 others at the end of the baseline, one of them yes, but not paired to all three across the carriageway?

I'm just seeking info that I can accept.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Then you need to either go to the manufacturer, or see what the type approval says.
In theory the cams need not be hard paired to the lane as you have pointed out. As you are after the absolute definitive answer, then as I suggested, either the manufacturer's blurb or the Type approval document should have the info that you want. I can't see them leaving the 'lane change' loophole in the system this time though.
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think 'pairing' is a more generic term (a pair of cameras, i.e. 2) and not a technical term (like Bluetooth pairing).

My understanding is that the cameras are linked to a central computer. The central processing handles the vehicle and date/time/location information and does the calculations between the 2 'pairs' of cameras.

I can't see the cameras themselves doing the actual calculations. I've also read in a FOI request/response that the new specs don't need to be paired directly - a reading between any 2 cameras is allowed.

e.g. cameras: A B C D

will take readings between A-B, A-C, A-D, B-C, B-D, C-D.

They're not physically paired, but they need 2 readings to calculate an average distance - i.e. you need a pair of cameras.

MaFt
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Found it, turns out it was PIPS Speedspike I read about for the 'pairing': https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/peakes_parkway_cameras

MaFt
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chas921
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

VYSIONICS quote " SPECS3 (POD) has achieved Home Office Type Approval and can now be used as part of an
active enforcement programme. The POD can be operated at a new site or alongside existing installations; providing fast, flexible and cost effective enforcement."

They also state, " A pair of POD devices creates an enforcement link, which is set up between two ‘POD – enabled’ camera columns. Multiple ‘POD enabled’ columns will cover a number of different routes, which allows the enforced sections to be changed when required.
The pods fit into the columns or similar street furniture adjacent to the columns.

Speed Check Services quote from a 2009 document.

"SPECS is a digital camera system set up to detect speed offences. It uses
linked cameras to calculate the average speed of a vehicle over the distance
travelled."




SPECS is not lane specific, or limited to vehicles that enter and exit the zone in the same lane.

The video cameras continuously capture images of vehicles as they pass through the field of view of the camera. Their number plates are read using Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) and the average speed of the vehicle is calculated between the linked cameras, over the known baseline distance. If this exceeds the Police speed threshold, an offence record is created and violation images and data are logged.

Accepted or not! There is no reason for an operator to link camera lane 3 to camera lane 1 in the chance that someone at speed will need to pull back into lane 1 and maintain the high speed. And you only need two cameras to be paired, so three entry cameras should have three exit cameras at the baseline distance all paired to the same lane, which still makes total sense! You could shut an exit camera for example on lane 3 for road works and therefore link Entry camera 3 to exit camera 2. That makes sense too, but unless you go between the two selected paired cameras, the system would ignore you, but still carry out the general ANPR checks?

Thats the advantage of the newer technology, you can select any camera to pair with any other camera in any other lane. But you still have to go between the paired cameras, above the speed threshold, to get noted.
I don't agree that one entry camera is now paired to three exit cameras at the same time, it can only be paired to one of them.

Proven otherwise, Thats what forum discussions are all about. ;-)
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Take care, keep your eyes on the road, not the navigator?

chas
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chas921 wrote:

I don't agree that one entry camera is now paired to three exit cameras at the same time, it can only be paired to one of them.
That's a ridiculous statement with the cameras connected individually to a 'central computer'. The computer can do the 'pairing' between any two cameras it is programmed to. (It does however make sense if those cameras are on the same stretch of road). Like this:- ANPR a car. Make a note of the time. Look for that car from any camera. Make a note of the time. Lookup the distance between the two cameras. Calculate the time taken to travel that distance. Divide distance by time (= speed). Compare speed with legal limit. Issue NIP if appropriate. Job done.
Quote:
Accepted or not! There is no reason for an operator to link camera lane 3 to camera lane 1 in the chance that someone at speed will need to pull back into lane 1 and maintain the high speed.....
But that is exactly what they have done to stop people doing just that.
Quote:
Proven otherwise, Thats what forum discussions are all about.
What, to spread rumours that are not true? Is that not what they call urban myth?
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