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Scotland to Get 135 Miles of Average Speed Cameras
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 3:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonM wrote:
or cameras within an identified avg speed stretch could be flagged as such in the database with the ones at either end flagged "start_end", or something.
It's not possible to do as you suggest for 'middle' cams as they may be start cams foe anyone joining in the middle of a SPECS zone as Dennis said. The last cam in a stretch is marked as 'END' and stops the average speed calculation and display in CA.
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AntonM
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 4:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
It's not possible to do as you suggest for 'middle' cams as they may be start cams foe anyone joining in the middle of a SPECS zone as Dennis said. The last cam in a stretch is marked as 'END' and stops the average speed calculation and display in CA.

The software would need to check whether the db entry for the next camera has its "avgcam" flag set. If it does, and the current one does not, then you've hit an avg camera stretch, and it doesn't matter whether it's from either end or in the middle. I think that the cameras at either end of a stretch would have to have the same end marking, as you could approach the stretch from either direction (unless avg cameras are guaranteed to be unidirectional?).

Clearly it can be done -- it just depends on whether the CA programmers consider it to be worthwhile or not.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 5:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

AntonM wrote:
The software would need to check whether the db entry for the next camera has its "avgcam" flag set. If it does, and the current one does not, then you've hit an avg camera stretch,
I don't see the logic here. The type of cam is known; be it Fixed, Mobile or SPECS etc. So the first specs you pass will start the average calculation and a SPECS marked as an 'END' will cancel it. The debate, if I read it correctly, seems to be that the warning for the intermediate cams are surplus to requirements, and I tend to agree with him. You get a warning when you enter the zone and an All Clear when you exit it, so why do you need the intermediate warnings?
Quote:
(unless avg cameras are guaranteed to be unidirectional?).
They are in CA
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AntonM
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
I don't see the logic here. The type of cam is known; be it Fixed, Mobile or SPECS etc. So the first specs you pass will start the average calculation and a SPECS marked as an 'END' will cancel it. The debate, if I read it correctly, seems to be that the warning for the intermediate cams are surplus to requirements, and I tend to agree with him. You get a warning when you enter the zone and an All Clear when you exit it, so why do you need the intermediate warnings?
Quote:
(unless avg cameras are guaranteed to be unidirectional?).
They are in CA

I think my knowledge of the different kinds of cameras and how they are used is lacking. You are quite correct -- if a SPECS is always an avg camera, then no additional db flag is needed to show that.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 03, 2013 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Google is your friend here or The bottom of the Big Pointy Finger page to the right of the post area.
Quote:
SPECS average speed camera systems utilise state of the art video system with Automatic Number Plate Reading (ANPR) digital technology. Consisting of a minimum of two cameras each fitted with infra red illuminators fitted on gantries above the road, so they can work day or night. SPECS speed cameras work out the vehicles average speed, given the time it takes to drive between the two camera positions.

A SPECS camera is Always an average speed camera by definition and they must come in at least pairs separated by 'a goodly distance'. (ANPR cameras and time over a known distance ant there will be a socking big computer involved as well.)
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I keep forgetting we decided to call it CamerAlert for all devices, not just iOS and Android. Yes, it is only possible for iOS and Android.

Anton, the SPECS cameras are already identified in the database as Start, Mid and End. There is also another which you can't see, which the database Admin has to manually check and insert where necessary, ExitSpecs, to act as End cameras when users leave the zone after a Mid camera.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 9:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:
I keep forgetting we decided to call it CamerAlert for all devices, not just iOS and Android.
I wonder who came up with THAT idea. It has led to no end of confusion by calling a phone app and a separate, non-related (other than the app uses the same dataset), PNA database by the same name. It's akin to TomTom releasing a PNA model named Western Europe.
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 04, 2013 4:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
DennisN wrote:
I keep forgetting we decided to call it CamerAlert for all devices, not just iOS and Android.
I wonder who came up with THAT idea. It has led to no end of confusion by calling a phone app and a separate, non-related (other than the app uses the same dataset), PNA database by the same name. It's akin to TomTom releasing a PNA model named Western Europe.

Incidentally, although I said "we decided" actually I had nothing to do with it - I got one of those fait things. I blame the Tories (or the Socialists, or the Greens, or Nigel whatsisname, but NOT Sutch) or MaFt. Whoever, they confused the heck out of me! And take care what you ask for - TomTom have already been calling them JohnJohn or similar on TV adverts (not that it's a bad idea - TomToms today are unrecognisable to anybody who hasn't changed their TomTom since three years ago).
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
You get a warning when you enter the zone and an All Clear when you exit it, so why do you need the intermediate warnings?


Helpful reminder that you're still in the average speed area and what the current speed is?

MaFt
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
M8TJT wrote:
You get a warning when you enter the zone and an All Clear when you exit it, so why do you need the intermediate warnings?


Helpful reminder that you're still in the average speed area and what the current speed is?

MaFt
Yes, MaFt and I agree there, I find the reminders very helpful (in my 50K+ miles a year). My personal (emphasised, personal) opinion is that the complaint is not valid. I think that if there were to be a poll with sufficient participants, the result would indicate very little support for this idea.

Anton there ARE some avg cameras which are not unidirectional. I think there are some (permanent ones) in Nottingham, where they have a single overhead pole with cameras facing both ways and I have certainly seen them on some motorway (temporary) roadworks sections too.

It may be uncomfortable to read, but I am also concerned lest additional work on the App might lead to deterioration in some other area.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:
It may be uncomfortable to read, but I am also concerned lest additional work on the App might lead to deterioration in some other area.
Hang on a mo Dennis, we are talking PGPSW here, not TT. Shocked
Dennis wrote:
there ARE some avg cameras which are not unidirectional. I think there are some (permanent ones) in Nottingham, where they have a single overhead pole with cameras facing both ways and I have certainly seen them on some motorway (temporary) roadworks sections too.
Ok not uni-directional but bi-directional then, as opposed to Omni-directional.
Here's on for MaFt. If, as Dennis says, there are co-located SPECS on single carriageways (which I know there are), one set must be an entry point (say) southbound and an exit pint northbound. How does that work in CA?
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Oldboy
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
If, as Dennis says, there are co-located SPECS on single carriageways (which I know there are), one set must be an entry point (say) southbound and an exit pint northbound. How does that work in CA?
... or both mid-points. Wink
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 2:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just been looking at the submission map at Nottingham to see if I could find an example mount. Best I found in quick search was (dual carriageway) Specs 50415 and 50451, which on the same pole are registered as two (unidirectional) cameras.

But the main thing it did was convince me that dropping intermediate warnings would be disastrous. Look at 52.97184,-1.18230 and get the zoom right to see zillions of average speed cameras covering a huge area. I confess I have no idea how pgpsw get anything right in the face of that!
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
Here's on for MaFt. If, as Dennis says, there are co-located SPECS on single carriageways (which I know there are), one set must be an entry point (say) southbound and an exit pint northbound. How does that work in CA?

They are added as 2 cameras. A 'START' on one direction and an 'END' on the other.

MaFt
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 5:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Why didn't I think of that. I should have known.
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