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Lifetime membership award decision
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bmuskett
Lifetime Member


Joined: May 12, 2006
Posts: 710
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:01 pm    Post subject: Lifetime membership award decision Reply with quote

I'm surprised there's nothing in here or on the home page about the announcement that was made in this morning's newsletter.

Darren wrote:
My call for comments regarding changes to the Lifetime Member award got your attention. A whopping 15 page thread ensued and the general consensus was very supportive. Despite strong support from subscribers for the revocation of all Life Memberships we believe it would be very unfair to withdraw them and consequently any Life Member will remain a Life Member.

Instead, from 1st November 2012, the reward offer will be changing. Subscribers submitting qualifying camera reports will receive a one year subscription which will be added on to their existing subscription. Subscribers will be able to accrue these rewards subject to a limit of one award per subscriber per week. It will also be a condition that a subscription is active both at the time of the report and at the time it enters the active/live database.

In addition we will be launching a donation option allowing Life Members the ability to make a contribution. Donations will be entirely voluntary and open to all PocketGPSWorld readers.

Such decisions are never easy but they need to be taken to ensure the long term viability of the speed camera database service and the website as a whole.
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MaFt
Pocket GPS Staff
Pocket GPS Staff


Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 14687
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We mentioned this in yesterday's Lifetime Awards post:

Quote:
The rewards for successful camera submissions are changing soon. Please keep an eye on the home page news or sign up to our newsletter to be updated.


So we will be posting a news item about it at some point. The news item will have a bit more detail about the whole thing so we decided ot to simply copy & paste the newsletter text.

MaFt
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bmuskett
Lifetime Member


Joined: May 12, 2006
Posts: 710
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 5:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
We mentioned this in yesterday's Lifetime Awards post:
Quote:
The rewards for successful camera submissions are changing soon. Please keep an eye on the home page news or sign up to our newsletter to be updated.

Sorry, I missed that.
MaFt wrote:
So we will be posting a news item about it at some point. The news item will have a bit more detail about the whole thing so we decided ot to simply copy & paste the newsletter text.

I see it's there now.
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JohnTT
Occasional Visitor


Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Sun Jun 08, 2014 7:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the lifetime membership was an excellent incentive. I was willing to pay 20 per year for the chance of a lifetime membership.

I only downloaded a fresh database when going on holiday once or twice a year however as I know my regular area's cameras - so it would have been cheaper to download as a one off for 2 a go but the lifetime membership was a good incentive and kept me keen spotting cameras.

I finally managed to be first with a camera spot after many attempts. The award of a year's free membership only really represents one or two downloads to me and only serves to highlight that I've been wasting my money.

I've cancelled my annual subscription now and don't intend to renew it as I have no real incentive - nor will I be inclined to do any reporting for the same reason. I've already spent enough money to have lasted many years into the future at my rate of downloading had I been buying a download at 2 a go. Sad but true.

I can see that having everyone eventually turn into a lifetime member is self defeating but I wonder how may have dropped out of yearly subscription for the same reasons as me?
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DennisN
Tired Old Man
Tired Old Man


Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 14857
Location: Keynsham

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've paid close on 2,000 a year for my van insurance since 1999. Each of my three accidents in over 50 years motoring have not been my fault and the other driver has paid up for my repairs. I've never had an accident that was my fault. The only time I claimed against my insurance was when an uninsured 70mph deer wrecked my front end. That was back in 2005 and cost 1,500 to repair.

1,500 claimed once in over 50 years, but I still waste money by getting insurance every year. I hate to think how many years worth of insurance money I could have saved by only insuring my vehicle in 2005. Clearly you would have stopped reporting cameras once you got your free lifetime membership, unlike so many who still report every week, week in, week out, so it wasn't much of a reward from PocketGPSWorld's point of view, was it? We had the discussions about value for money some eight years ago when the database changed from monthly at 2 to annual at 20, then we had the discussions about discontinuing the lifetime free membership award a couple of years ago. I guess you were a non-participating community member at the time or we could have heard your arguments about it. But don't worry, we already heard them without your two-penn'orth.

Goodbye and good luck with your licence. Peace of mind is obviously not worth 20 to you and no doubt you know of something which for 20 will offer you far greater value for money - three packets of fags, four or five beers, part of a meal for two at the seaside, a few hours parking meters in Bristol, two visits to London's Congestion Zone (until they increase the price next week), whatever.

PS I have lifetime membership, because they declined to withdraw it from exisiting lifetime members (and a helluva lot of us offered). But I still donate 20 each year. Of course, in my case the 20 is microscropic amongst my 60,000 miles a year, I can't even begin to factor in a cost per mile.
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Dennis

If it tastes good - it's fattening.

Two of them are obesiting!!
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DennisN
Tired Old Man
Tired Old Man


Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 14857
Location: Keynsham

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

To read the two penn'orths, Click here.
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Dennis

If it tastes good - it's fattening.

Two of them are obesiting!!
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JohnTT
Occasional Visitor


Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for the link - it's a good job I hadn't left yet following your warm invitation.

Road vehicle insurance is very unlike paying for information about the whereabouts of speed cameras. Having paid my Pocket GPS subscription; if I was flashed by a speed camera and was then fined I could not make a claim. It is NOT therefore an insurance scheme, it is merely the purchase of assisting and preventative information. The money you've paid towards your insurance isn't "wasted" as it went towards accident claims of others and in part would have gone to you, along with others' contributions if you'd made a claim - that's because it IS an insurance scheme.

A far better analogy would be buying a map to go on holiday with and choosing between a small one off map purchase or buying multiple copies and updates you'll never use all year round just to enter a prize draw. The prize draw incentive gets withdrawn - why would you not revert back to buying a one off copy when you actually need one. That's a far better analogy as it's almost exactly the same.

To presume I would not have made future camera spot contributions, having become a lifetime member, is very presumptive of you. I may have felt grateful, included, part of a community and wish to make contribution by such submissions as I have done in the past. As it is now I "feel" somewhat cheated of the opportunity - it's not what I signed up for. An annual subscription seems very little different from buying speed camera updates from TomTom now. A small one off purchase however is more worthwhile to me.

I have not contributed to these boards very much because my interests lie elsewhere and I don't have the time. I have only done so now to make the point I have made. I may have made similar points in discussions here had I been aware of them and had the time but it's too late now to prevent change as it has already happened. I can merely make consequential points and ask the question, that still remains unanswered; have annual subscriptions fallen since the lifetime membership incentive was withdrawn? How now looks the business model?
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
The Other Tired Old Man


Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 10118
Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 12:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnTT wrote:
I was willing to pay 20 per year for the chance of a lifetime membership.
And I was under the misapprehension that the 20 was for an accurate speed camera database, not a lottery purchase
Quote:
An annual subscription seems very little different from buying speed camera updates from TomTom now.
The cash difference might seem small, but the quality difference is vast. Try the TT data and see.
Quote:
{snip}and ask the question, that still remains unanswered; have annual subscriptions fallen since the lifetime membership incentive was withdrawn? How now looks the business model?
I think that's a little presumptive of you to ask PGPSW about details of their business model. having said that, an interesting question that I assume will remain unanswered Very Happy
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JohnTT
Occasional Visitor


Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
JohnTT wrote:
I was willing to pay 20 per year for the chance of a lifetime membership.
And I was under the misapprehension that the 20 was for an accurate speed camera database, not a lottery purchase
Quote:
An annual subscription seems very little different from buying speed camera updates from TomTom now.
The cash difference might seem small, but the quality difference is vast. Try the TT data and see.


You may have a point - I've not tried it.

M8TJT wrote:
JohnTT wrote:
{snip}and ask the question, that still remains unanswered; have annual subscriptions fallen since the lifetime membership incentive was withdrawn? How now looks the business model?
I think that's a little presumptive of you to ask PGPSW about details of their business model. having said that, an interesting question that I assume will remain unanswered Very Happy


Well, I was told, that most subscribers regularly updated and subscribed annually and that giving away lifetime memberships was therefore "not a sustainable business model", as justification. The corollary is me wondering if I am therefore atypical or if it was only presumed that the annual subscribers regularly updated, which leads to my question. I can only ask.
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MaFt
Pocket GPS Staff
Pocket GPS Staff


Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 14687
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The idea of the award was, and still is, to reward those who help improve the database.

The problem we were having is that someone who submitted a single camera over 5 years was being rewarded the same as someone who was submitting 50 cameras a year for 5 years.

I can't remember the full ins and outs that happened during the lead up to the change (which was nearly 2 years ago now) but basically the outcome of the current system is that those who keep submitting new cameras, corrections, removals etc will, essentially, get a lifetime subscription (you get a 1yr sub for each successful submission (max 1 per user per week)) - keep submitting = keep getting a free sub.

Conversely, those who submit only a small number, will get a smaller reward. We felt, and still do feel, that this is the fairest method.

Admittedly there will be some non-standard scenarios, such as yours, where it doesn't quite 'fit', but it's impossible to have a system that fits every possible scenario.

Plus, how may other companies give you free stuff?

MaFt
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
The Other Tired Old Man


Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 10118
Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
Conversely, those who submit only a small number, will get a smaller reward. We felt, and still do feel, that this is the fairest method.
Sounds pretty reasonable to me.
Quote:
Plus, how may other companies give you free stuff?
Loads Very Happy
JohnTT wrote:
You may have a point - I've not tried it.

From what I hear from pretty reliable people who run TT's database alongside the PGPSW data, the consensus of opinion is 'Don't bother with TT data unless it is given to you free. And then only to compare with PGPSW's.
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DennisN
Tired Old Man
Tired Old Man


Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 14857
Location: Keynsham

PostPosted: Mon Jun 09, 2014 10:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnTT wrote:
An annual subscription seems very little different from buying speed camera updates from TomTom now.
Just off the top of my head, here are a few differences

Accuracy. Of course if you don't get out much it doesn't really matter. But I do get out much and I notice the differences (I have TomTom cameras on the Live Services feature) - last time I went up the M6, they still hadn't twigged the miles and miles of average speed cameras just north of Birmingham. Today I went to London and they still have average speed cameras around junction 7 of M4. That is really annoying to be repeatedly harassed by the beeps when the cameras are long gone.

Rewards. OK, so you now only get a free year with PGPSW, but with TomTom notifying them of a camera is like shoving it down a black hole and you certainly don't get any reward for doing so. Having said which, I know a guy who reported every street name and speed limit in and around his (very large) home town (close on 1,000 corrections if memory serves me right), sufficient to impress them enough to grant him trusted status and let him test some new devices for them.

They seem to have abandoned all attempts at marking mobile hotspots - no warnings these days of locations regularly frequented by mobiles.

Warning audio - for me, PGPSW not only tells me the TYPE of camera, it also tells me the SPEED of the camera. TomTom beeps - the same beep for all 12 of their categories. And they are supposedly directional - so why do they warn me of some cameras on the opposite carriageway of the M4?

Cost. That one-off annual fee for PGPSW allows you to load the database on up to three devices in the same household - your TomTom, your wife's iPhone, your son's Android. Rather cuts the expense dunnit? TomTom would ask you for 60.

Did I give you a warm invitation? I can't find it in my post. I thought I merely wished you goodbye and good luck with your licence.

I didn't think I was being very presumptive that you wouldn't have made future camera spot contributions - I read this...
JohnTT wrote:
I've cancelled my annual subscription now and don't intend to renew it as I have no real incentive - nor will I be inclined to do any reporting for the same reason.

Then I read this..
JohnTT wrote:
it's a good job I hadn't left yet following your warm invitation.
You've left, but not yet. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes

I take it that having read the 15 pages of discussion on the change to the awards, you nevertheless still feel the urge to bless us with your fresh new thinking. Thumbs Up
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Dennis

If it tastes good - it's fattening.

Two of them are obesiting!!
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JohnTT
Occasional Visitor


Joined: Nov 27, 2006
Posts: 55

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:

Did I give you a warm invitation? I can't find it in my post. I thought I merely wished you goodbye and good luck with your licence.


Your invitation appeared to be for me to leave. I thought it a little unfriendly so my reply with the warm reference was ironic. Sorry if you you missed that.

DennisN wrote:
I didn't think I was being very presumptive that you wouldn't have made future camera spot contributions - I read this...
JohnTT wrote:
I've cancelled my annual subscription now and don't intend to renew it as I have no real incentive - nor will I be inclined to do any reporting for the same reason.


Your presumption is applying what I said about my decision following withdrawal of the lifetime incentive to the hypothetical situation where I to have been rewarded a lifetime reward. Did you also miss the points I made about feeling grateful and included as part of a community had I received it? Are you confused or are you intending to mislead?

DennisN wrote:
Then I read this..
JohnTT wrote:
it's a good job I hadn't left yet following your warm invitation.
You've left, but not yet. Rolling Eyes Rolling Eyes


Oh dear. I'm reminded of Blackadder asking Baldrick, "Do you know what irony is?" To which Baldrick answered, "Yes, it's a bit like goldy or bronzey only it's made of iron."

DennisN wrote:
I take it that having read the 15 pages of discussion on the change to the awards, you nevertheless still feel the urge to bless us with your fresh new thinking. Thumbs Up


You being friendly again?


MaFt wrote:
...those who keep submitting new cameras, corrections, removals etc will, essentially, get a lifetime subscription (you get a 1yr sub for each successful submission (max 1 per user per week)) - keep submitting = keep getting a free sub. ...


Thanks. I thought you had to have a valid paid for subscription to receive a reward from a successful submission i.e. a free membership didn't count - or have I got that wrong?
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bmuskett
Lifetime Member


Joined: May 12, 2006
Posts: 710
Location: Stockport, Cheshire

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

JohnTT wrote:

MaFt wrote:
...those who keep submitting new cameras, corrections, removals etc will, essentially, get a lifetime subscription (you get a 1yr sub for each successful submission (max 1 per user per week)) - keep submitting = keep getting a free sub. ...


Thanks. I thought you had to have a valid paid for subscription to receive a reward from a successful submission i.e. a free membership didn't count - or have I got that wrong?

I think you've got that wrong. My understanding is that any subscription, paid or free, counts. And I think what MaFt is saying above, is that you get a year's free subscription for each successful submission, so if you spot 5 cameras, you would get another 5 years free subs added on to your current sub.

If I read your first post right, you've just been awarded a free sub for a year, and I think that runs from when your current subscription expires. So you've got that time to find more cameras to keep it going. How's that for an incentive to look out for changes while your current sub runs?

But if you get to the end of your free year and you haven't found any new cameras to extend it, that's when you have to decide whether it's worth paying or not. I'm in the same position as you in that I don't download the updates very often these days, except I have a lifetime membership so I don't have to worry about paying for it. But I have donated (must check how long ago), because I do think it's worth paying for, however little I use it. Your mileage may vary.
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sussamb
Pocket GPS Verifier
Pocket GPS Verifier


Joined: Mar 18, 2011
Posts: 4378
Location: West Sussex

PostPosted: Tue Jun 10, 2014 4:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bmuskett wrote:

I think you've got that wrong. My understanding is that any subscription, paid or free, counts. And I think what MaFt is saying above, is that you get a year's free subscription for each successful submission, so if you spot 5 cameras, you would get another 5 years free subs added on to your current sub.


Correct. I've reported 2 cameras and my membership was extended by 2 years. So even if I don't spot another camera that's around 7 per year over the 3 years for speed camera warnings on mine and my wife's Garmin. Pretty good value IMO.
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