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I am making the general point as to the problems that having a company where the majority shareholders are the founders and directors can cause.
As for TT, I am happy to judge them by their actions.
Like producing new PND products that have less features than previous ones they replaced, a remarkable achievement in the day and age where continuous improvement is essential.
And then we can go on to the appalling support. Like telling me that there software would not work on a particular phone when I had already told them that I had installed it on that phone and it was working. I knew more about TT's product than the support person who was emailing me (and that's going some).
Like still not having software for the fastest growing mobile platform, Android.
And then finally boasting that they have ex-Nokia and Psion managers. Companies that lost dominant market positions in new technology. After a hatrick do you think? _________________ Peter
HTC Sensation
Sygic GPS for Europe (No more TT "support"!)
Copilot for USA
Bury CC9060 bluetooth car kit & Brodit mount
For the support issue. I've heard that several times. Support, in general, is a problem in it's own right. I know, because in my job I have set up customer support centres for different companies and governments. The problem always is, that support is considered expensive. Especially on a global scale. To drive down costs they also use a lot of cheap employees, like students. As these students don't stay for a very long time, it's very hard to maintain a good level of knowledge of the product. There's a newbee every week.
With TomTom I think for a too long time they have put out a lot of different models. I think there are far too many of them. It makes it hard for customers to choose a device, but also drives the costs of support. Also they phase out older models too late. There are not only too many models, but also too little standards. For instance over the air map updates VS updating maps with a simcard.
I don't understand why they don't make ONE piece of hardware, where the customer can choose different kinds of maps and functionalities, thus creating it's own entry level of full blown system. That would also make it easier for someone to upgrade his model.
What if I buy an entry level START25, and because of changing jobs or whatever, I want to make use of traffic information. That is not possible, so I have to throw my Start model away and buy a VIA or GO live device or download the tomtom iphone app (considering I own an iPhone) with an HD traffic service.
So I fully agree that tomtom, or for that matter any company, should invest more in customer service. But it's not an easy task. Also it would help customer service to not have too many different products and legacy.
Another point is that prices of PND have been driven down. Driven by free smartphone apps and cheap PND manufacturers. They can be cheap, because they probably don't have a customer service at all. I've also read that Google customer service can be dreadful. But hey, it's free, so why complain?
About Psion: there are a lot of ex-Psion people who were full of ideas which they were not allowed to execute. So they left to do it elsewhere. For instance, one person had an idea of an audio player with a harddisk. He left to Apple, to create the ipod. Some other people had the idea to create a GPS system. They founded tomtom. And some others formed the Symbian team at Nokia. So that's a little different than people leaving the place AFTER losing a dominant market position.
With Nokia I think the problem is not only the OS or software that is the problem. It's also the hardware that's behind it's competition like Apple, Samsung and HTC.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 11:28 am Post subject:
At the risk of sounding like a broken record ......
ALL of those problems are down to poor management. Whether it is poor support, poor hardware, poor software, poor anything ..... it is ALWAYS poor management. And when poor management moves to a new company it rarely gets better, hence my scepticism of the link you posted.
And good support is the lifeblood of a good organisation. All you need are good, knowledgeable, helpful, well paid enthusiasts. Anything else is poor management.
You are simply wrong to suggest that companies that sell sat nav apps don't have good support. I have consistently got very quick knowledgeable and HELPFUL answers from Sygic to various problems over the time I have used them. And they treated me like an adult. When they had a problem they said "we have a problem" and explained what it was and what they were doing about it. Compare that with TT, where nothing is their fault, so it must be you.
The same goes for Copilot. On the three occasions I have needed to contact them I have had quick answers that solved my issues.
It seems to me that you agree this is a company with poor support and a poor product range. And this is supposed to be the market leader. I cannot see how anybody can have much faith in the management that got them to this sorry state. It saddens me because I think the Sat Nav industry needs a quick, innovative, customer focused Tom Tom, like the one of old.
Probably best I leave it at that for the moment and see what others think, or let the thread die. _________________ Peter
HTC Sensation
Sygic GPS for Europe (No more TT "support"!)
Copilot for USA
Bury CC9060 bluetooth car kit & Brodit mount
Ok, thanks Peterc. Let's see and maybe this thread is done. And let's hope they are reading you.
My comment was about service in general. I strongly agree that service is the heart of every company. Hence, TomTom have a huge 'installed base' (50 mln units sold) who can become either second time buyers, or buyers of maps and services. And even if they don't buy anything after the initial purchase, it is by principal that you serve every customer right, not only new customers. I wasn't specific in saying TomTom support is poor. I don't know. I hope not, but from what I read here there are at least some issues.
About the speed of launching products, like the long awaited Android app you mentioned. All I can think of is debt reduction in recent years being a factor in not having enough software people to get products to the market quick enough. I think it's also possible that software developers have been working on urgent automotive in-dash systems (Mazda), and as a result the Android app is still not on the market.
Still I think it won't be long before the Android app to be launched. As a shareholder I hope it will also offer maps in Asia, where smartphones are booming and the market is still underpenetrated.
Joined: 15/07/2003 22:59:27 Posts: 1050 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Tue Oct 04, 2011 10:58 pm Post subject:
Whatever we as users want, it makes sense to pay off (some) of your debt and be a little slower to market that rush to market without a care as to cost
As for Google, their maps as Darren says are not great in the US, so there is not much hope for elsewhere for some time to come. And google - now more than ever - is also about making money. They all to often just try and hide this fact
Personally I would prefer to pay TomTom £50 a year for maps ad-free than google provide free maps in return for advertising on my dashboard - okay for casual users, but not for me
TomTom will (in fact, are now) starting to see a return on their investment in to data services (HD Traffic), smartphone apps, in-car and mapping services, and they move their business away from being too PND heavy
To be truthful they have done this exceptionally well, although whenever there is change it upsets some people, including previously loyal existing users. This sometimes has to be the case
Garmin on the other hand may seem to be doing better, but with no mapping, traffic or other revenue streams aside from PND unit sales (hence their purchase of Navigon just to try and sustain unit volumes), future is currently the one to watch
TomTom have valuable assets in a changing market
A piece of hardware alone is pretty much out of date before it is launched _________________ TomTom Go Live 6100, 600
Garmin DriveLux 50, D-Smart 70, NuviCam, 3598, 2699, 2798
Mio Navman 695
Nexus 6p, Apple iPhone 6sPlus and Microsoft Lumia 950xl running TomTom, Garmin, CoPilot, Navigon, Sygic, Here Drive, Google, Waze, MS Maps
When I look at the Garmin figures, they are doing well, but mostly outside of the car navigation business. They earn good margins in the sports/fitness business and also in aviation, marine, etc. When you focus on car navigation alone, you get a different picture.
I believe that Garmin will remain a bigger and stronger company when you look at the whole. When you focus on car navigation I think that TomTom have an edge over Garmin.
First of all the PND sales are dropping much faster in the US (30%) than in Europe (15%). Garmin being marketleader in the US, and TomTom in Europe, this hits Garmin harder.
Garmin now claim that they are gaining marketshare in Europe very fast. But what I see is that Garmin had a 20% marketshare, and they acquired Navigon with a 7% marketshare. Their combined marketshare didn't increase.
TomTom looks at the market in terms of revenue, and Garmin in terms of units sold. It is true that Garmin is gaining marketshare in terms of volume, but in terms of revenue this is not happening. This could only mean that Garmin sells a lot of cheaper models, and TomTom trying to focus on their higher end LIVE models. So I think navigation is not very profitable for Garmin, while their other businesses are.
I think that Garmin focussing on units, is because they own the production plants themselves, while tomtom has it's production outsourced in Asia. So Garmin needs volume to keep their machinery running. They might even buy more smaller PND manufacturers. That would clean up the market, with too many models for an average consumer to choose from.
TomTom focussing on the higher end is also understandable, because they are after the recurring revenue of live services.
Apart from that I think TomTom is doing well in keeping investing in maps and bringing HD traffic to more countries http://www.financialpost.com/markets/news/TomTom+Roll+Traffic+Canada/5505270/story.html. Having so many input from users should give them an edge of keeping maps updated on a global scale without the huge costs of having too many vans drive around the globe to map area's.
Nobody know what the future holds. When Garmin is concerned, I think that they are cash rich, but will not innovate very much in the navigation business. They have growth markets outside navigation, while they see the PND market in decline. So where would you put your R&D money? I do believe that they will spend much money on keeping volume up, maybe with some other acquisition.
Joined: 12/09/2002 14:25:05 Posts: 141 Location: Hampshire, United Kingdom
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:57 am Post subject:
xtraseller wrote:
Definitely - this is why we should all subscribe to the mapping updates for our units, whatever they are and what form they come in to support the data services we rely upon
I would prefer if we all contributed to OpenStreetMap. That would remove our dependency on any particular map provider. _________________ Philip
Obviously can only speak for myself (and a number of friends) but TomTom really needs to wake up to the advances in the smartphone market. The reality is that the majority of people don't use a satnav everyday (they have worked out how to get to work/shops and back) and so don't need or want an expensive dedicated device. I have sucessfully navigated around a lot of Europe using my smartphone. I agree with a lot of the comments that TomTom should make greater efforts to ensure the accuracy of the maps and sell these updates at reasonable prices.
The reality is that the majority of people don't use a satnav everyday and so don't need or want an expensive dedicated device.
I agree with you that there are a lot of people for whom a smartphone is just fine. And I myself also use the tomtom iphone app.
What I don't believe is free nav apps harming the business very hard. It just grows the market with people who otherwise wouldn't buy satnav at all.
Also a free app is just one step up from a payed app or an in-app purchase. In that sense free apps can be beneficial for the market as well, it helps first time buyers to get acquainted with navigation.
TomTom now have a free places app, which offers some sort of routing, but not turn by turn. And off course they should release an Android app asap.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 1:42 pm Post subject:
tomtom_shareholder wrote:
And off course they should release an Android app asap.
They are simply too late for that - we have all gone elsewhere, and why should we change now?
TT have gone from being first in the market to last in the market. _________________ Peter
HTC Sensation
Sygic GPS for Europe (No more TT "support"!)
Copilot for USA
Bury CC9060 bluetooth car kit & Brodit mount
And off course they should release an Android app asap.
They are simply too late for that - we have all gone elsewhere, and why should we change now?
TT have gone from being first in the market to last in the market.
We will see. I understand that there are a lot of people already using Cygic for instance. On the other hand I think there is still a lot of potential, even if they release it just now. Iphone app sales aren't decreasing either. It started at 100K downloads per quarter, and now it's 110K.
About whether or not the 'transition' is going slow, or fast. Maybe this picture tells a little more. It shows the percentage of revenue from content & services compared to hardware.
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 4:51 pm Post subject:
tomtom_shareholder wrote:
[
We will see. I understand that there are a lot of people already using Cygic for instance. On the other hand I think there is still a lot of potential, even if they release it just now. Iphone app sales aren't decreasing either. It started at 100K downloads per quarter, and now it's 110K.
Not just Sygic. Copilot, Navigon, and Google Nav, which is free. Oh and my Sensation comes with its own paid for Sat Nav app if I want it. The difference is TT was first (or close) to market with the iphone and got good sales because of that. If they had of been in the market when I got my first Android phone then they may have had my business. But they weren't and they didn't and they still aren't. And we are talking years not months now. _________________ Peter
HTC Sensation
Sygic GPS for Europe (No more TT "support"!)
Copilot for USA
Bury CC9060 bluetooth car kit & Brodit mount
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 5:13 pm Post subject:
tomtom_shareholder wrote:
Iphone app sales aren't decreasing either. It started at 100K downloads per quarter, and now it's 110K.
The above "fact" could be taken one of two ways:
a/ That 110K users purchased the TomTom app in the last quarter.
or
b/ That 110K users downloaded the TomTom app in the last quarter which is a 10K increase, the other 100K will still be downloading it for free as TomTom have never charged for an iPhone app update.
The difference is quite significant, 100K new users or 10K new users - Marketing hype/ clever use of statistics - Mike
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