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French Motorists Mobilize To Fight SpeedCam Warning Ban
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legalspeed
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Joined: Sep 27, 2010
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its possible that I have a slightly different view of what's active and what's passive. I tend to think of an active device as one that takes action against the source of the signal that has detected it. The military might use electronic counter measures, or launch a missile against it to seek its source. In the real world that we inhabit, then a signal to momentarily blind the laser detector on , for example a speed measuring device, is probably the best that can be done. Regrettably, these cost an arm and a leg to buy and fit, and the authorities tend to come down rather heavily on anyone caught using them, even if they can genuinely be used to aid parking, or to open a garage door. I would tend to regard almost anything else as passive. It's true that a device that detects, for example, a radar or laser pulse and then gives a warning to the driver might be considered possibly to have an active dimension, but it certainly does nothing against the radar or laser gun producing the signal. The only problem with such devices is that if it has detected the radar or laser looking at you, it's likely that your speed will have been read and recorded by the time you get down to the legal limit, thus nullifying the reason for having bought and fitted it in the first place? To my mind,( and perhaps others will agree with me,) the only truly passive devices are, as in my post above, a paper map/ atlas with known camera sites marked on it, or its electronic equivalent, ie the POI camera database in the sat nav memory. These are truly passive devices, in that thet don't detect a speed measuring device, and warn the driver, or take any action against it. The best that they can do is to warn you that the possibility of a speed camera exists, and that it would be prudent to slow down and observe the speed limit, even if you have inadvertantly strayed above it. For example, you may pass the same spot a hundred times, and the mobile camera may only be there the once. Admittedly, the presence of a fixed camera is more likely, but even then, it may not be working or you may be just in the right position behind another vehicle to avoid detection. Only a good up to date sat nav database will give the most likely warning of active cameras, which is probably why the pocketgps one is so popular, but even this must be kept up to date to give the best results. Perhaps the French lobby will succeed, and the government may change its mind, but if not, it will be interesting to possibly be penalised for using a certain atlas with speed camera sites marked on the maps? After all, it is a speed camera site warning device. Regards, legalspeed.
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pdfbt40
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In the automotive world the most commonly used definitions are not based on the actions of the device, but its interaction with the driver/passenger.

Active device requires and input from the driver, ie seatbelt requires fastening (althought there are motorised diagonals in the USA).
Passive device requires no input from the driver, ie immobilisers using proximity transponders.

Yes I know, as an ex industrial I&C enginner I dont like it either, but if that's the industry definition......

Martin
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
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PostPosted: Tue May 31, 2011 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. That's one hell of a paragraph Very Happy
I assume that a TV is not active then Shocked
But I tend to agree with you in part. I was using the 'definition' that a 'detector' uses active devices to detect the transmissions from a radar or laser. On the contrary, a passive device does not 'detect' as such, it just knows there may be a radar or laser present in any particular location and warns you as you approach that location.
The first are illegal in UK but the second are not.
legalspeed wrote:
The only problem with such devices is that if it has detected the radar or laser looking at you, it's likely that your speed will have been read and recorded by the time you get down to the legal limit, thus nullifying the reason for having bought and fitted it in the first place?
This is true of laser detectors, as the laser has a very narrow beamwidth so you can't 'see' it unless it's pointing pretty much directly at you. Another point about the laser is that it is only directed at you when the operator wants to check your speed and as it takes much less than a second to measure your speed, it's too damn late to do anything about it, as you say.

The same is not so true about radar emitters. Firstly, the radar is transmitting all the time, either pulsed or CW. Secondly, the radar beamwidth is much wider than a laser, with probably fairly extensive sidelobes and there is also likely to be quite a bit of scatter from nearby objects. This enables a suitable radar frequency detector to pick up the transmissions quite a way before you get to the radar source so giving you the oportunity to slow down if required.
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Scotch_Al
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Joined: Apr 20, 2011
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:10 am    Post subject: French Gov't backtracks on Detectors ... Reply with quote

According to the latest I've read, the French gov't reached an agreement last Friday with Afftac - the group of French suppliers and users of technology and driving aids (to translate roughly).

I quote: According to a ministry statement, "as regards compliance with speed limits, it was agreed that the warning radars will be transformed into driving aids to mark dangerous areas. "

With these tools, "the danger zones are well marked along the length of the route to allow motorists to adjust their speed according to the limitations and circumstances. "


Presumably, the legal interpretation will then be that the cameras are positioned in areas of increased risk of incident. The radar-camera's emissions will NOT designed to trigger the camera (although it WILL anyway), but to warn drivers that they are entering this are of risk, and the detector is a means of advising the driver that they are so doing.

Which begs the question: When is a U-turn not a U-turn ...?
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 01, 2011 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, we're back to square one then... Sort of...

You are allowed to use a device that warns you of dangerous areas, speed cameras are in place at dangerous areas so you can use a device that warns you of speed cameras.

The question is now, why are the French government purposefully NOT telling drivers about roads that are dangerous? The've removed the warning signs... Either they want people to crash or they want to make a lot of money.

MaFt
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Spy_Dad
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 7:23 am    Post subject: Illegal? Always Was Reply with quote

Quote:
The Government also announced that warning signs would be removed as part of their response to a 13% increase in road fatalities in Q1 of 2011.


These statistics as usual have no breakdown and are just statistics. Any government on hearing a statistic that is in the public eye tend to knee jerk. Can i just say statistic again Very Happy
Anyway I have been under the impression that speed camera detectors - I’m not going to enter the realms of passive/active etc and just say all Very Happy - were and have been illegal in France for years. In fact when I first got a French speedcam DB it was from an illegal French website, I think back in 2004/2005. So this news is nothing new to me and yes back to square one!
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 04, 2011 9:01 am    Post subject: Re: Illegal? Always Was Reply with quote

Spy_Dad wrote:
In fact when I first got a French speedcam DB it was from an illegal French website, I think back in 2004/2005.
You may be able to get our database form a dodgy site, but that does not make it illegal
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pu55er
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 20, 2011 4:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me odd that France can unilaterally bring out a motoring law and yet it appears if we bring out laws it has to pass through Brussels. (Normally I find Brussels pass through me rapidly, adding to my carbon footprint Embarassed )

Seemingly we are getting to a situation where Germany and France do what they like and the balance (which are unlikely to be there long) have to toe the line otherwise the Brussel Gravy train will arrive at our door with a fine. (Probably late on our rails).

I am not anti Europe by any means, just anti the corruption that it has created and elected members do nothing to alter the status quo.
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Scotch_Al
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PostPosted: Tue Jun 28, 2011 2:34 pm    Post subject: French Gov't's latest (final?) position on Speed Cameras Reply with quote

It seems the French government has backed down somewhat, and drivers will still be warned of radar speed-cameras as they approach them.

Latest I've been able to pick up is that the Interior Minsitry has sent an official letter to all prefectures, telling them that any Warning Panels they remove (which will be all of them) must immediately be replaced by a radar pédagogique i.e. a panel displaying your speed.

This will be followed further down the road by the fixed radar camera that will actually be responsible for getting you a ticket if it catches you exceeding the speed limit. The major problem now is that the distance between the two will be "between a few tens of metres and several kilometres," as opposed to the current 400 metres. Faites vos jeux ... Rolling Eyes

It should be noted, too, that the map of fixed radar cameras is no longer available on the Road Safety Authority's (CISR) website.

----
As an aside, our two-wheeler cousins should be aware that the French government has another storm brewing: they've introduced a law saying that riders of two-wheeled vehicles (bicycles as well as motor-bikes?) must wear "reflective equipment," but they won't take a position on whether a reflective waistcoat is required, or just a jacket with reflective stripes on the arms ...
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almartres
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 9:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad what's wrong with that? Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Scotch_Al
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PostPosted: Tue Jul 05, 2011 11:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

almartres wrote:
Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad Evil or Very Mad what's wrong with that? Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


What's wrong with what? If you mean the fact that the speed-camera will be an indeterminate distance between a few metres and several kilometres after the "warning" camera, there's nothing wrong with it, so long as people are aware of it. Of course, if you stick always to the speed-limit, even when passing another vehicle, there's nothing to worry about ...

If you're referring to the fact that the French government won't define "reflective equipment" then it leaves the question wide open for (mis-)interpretation by police and/or the courts - but that's properly the topic for another forum ...
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