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ok so Q4 maps downloaded just UK for the moment and it appears to be fine the only thing to be aware of is that if you only download the uk map as I did it will wipe every other map on the system. This is fine for me at the moment as I generally only travel throughout the UK.
Joined: Sep 06, 2006 Posts: 1618 Location: East Hertfordshire
Posted: Mon Nov 22, 2010 5:54 pm Post subject:
Quote:
Also waiting to have a go with 3D, that's not popped up yet either. Would have thought birmingham was a big enough city to be included.
cubit - have you found it yet (I have)? If not, have you gone onto Q4 maps - there is a 3D-View "compatible with Q4" you can also download; if you didn't download it, maybe you're still on a possibly incompatible version.
BTW, have you managed to get an alternative route with a Traffic incident offered to you DIRECTLY on-screen yet (ie without going into the traffic list itself as I suggested previously), or is it still saying 'no alternative available' all the time? _________________ David
(Navigon 70 Live, Nuvi 360)
Joined: Sep 06, 2006 Posts: 1618 Location: East Hertfordshire
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:37 pm Post subject:
Just had an email from navigating.de that the english version of V4 of POI Warner should be available in the 1st or 2nd quarter of 2011 (though their website Q&A still says "early January").
My reading of the german manual, and from answers I have received from n.de, is that (as with the current version) there is no particular limit to the number of POIs they can support. To display POIs directly on the current map the system selects them from the total database, so that within POI Warner the 10,000 limit seems to be applied only to the number shown in the current 'map view' ('rolling' POIs in and out of memory as the map view changes) - a limit that you'd need a pretty big screen to reach! They say that if a VERY large number of POIs needed to be continuously cycled in and out, then there could be an effect on performance - I suspect this is actually an unlikely situation in practice.
So, once V4 is out, it should be possible to load all PGPSW cameras and any other POIs of interest. Guess I'll be purchasing it when I can. _________________ David
(Navigon 70 Live, Nuvi 360)
Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 25 Location: The Great Lines Of Defence
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 9:30 pm Post subject:
After a week with Navigon 70 Premium Live I'm preparing to type slightly longer review, but at the moment, I thought I would bounce couple of issues off other 70 users.
Voice guidance doesn't quite work for me as seen on most of the videos. In most demos, you see people using proximity sensor to activate main menu, then go through the usual "Select destination" routine. However, unless I hard reset device, when woken up from standby, the Navigon 70 always wakes to full screen map, rather than start menu. At that point proximity sensor will not activate any voice guidance options (it will just provide regular touch menu, with three parking/fuel/etc shortcuts on top and config menu down at the bottom of the screen. So it seems to me, that once you mount the device and power it on from standby it is not, de facto, possible to choose new destination via voice commands without tapping all over the screen and going back, confirming cancellation of last route etc etc. Or have I missed some trick?
More often than not, when woken up from standby, the voice assistant on my device will loose voice. It does full map guidance voice over - make a u-turn, bear right, moose left - etc is all there - but the voice assistant, responsible for voice menus, just disappears - sometimes it will do "bong" sounds as if it was asking me some question, other times both questions and "bong" sounds will be equally inaudible. Voice assistant is set to full volume in config, no changes to any menus between standby cycles, but the only way to make unit ask questions again is to cancel existing navigation, go all the way to beginning, then start anew. Most of the time voice assistant resets at this point and can be heard again. Until I put it in standby again, and when I wake the unit, it stops talking again. Only the voice commands, never the actual guidance voice. Is it just my unit, or someone else had that problem as well?
Joined: Sep 06, 2006 Posts: 1618 Location: East Hertfordshire
Posted: Mon Dec 13, 2010 10:15 pm Post subject:
Hi vOn - I haven't experienced what you describe in your second para, which sounds decidedly iffy. You may have something to ask Navigon about! (Or take it back to (Halfords?) and get another one).
But I can make a couple of suggestions on the first para, to start things off. Navigon admitted to me that the Voice Control & Proximity Sensor don't do quite 'what it says on the tin', and I'm hoping they are going to correct it.
With PS 'OFF', things work as they should - touch the screen and the VC and Dynamic Status bar activate. BUT, with PS 'ON', the DS bar comes up properly with a wave of the hand, BUT the VC does not, unless you touch (yes, that's right!) the screen BEFORE the DS bar appears - otherwise it won't activate at all on that screen. That sounds like what you are getting. For the mo, probably simplest to set PS 'OFF', unless you are nimble fingered.
The other point is that it SOUNDS from your description as if you are putting it into standby while a route is still active, in which case it will try to pick up where it left off when you turn it on again. If you get it back to the initial menu screen first, with no route active, (where there is also a Voice Control button) then it SHOULD come up again on that - but if you don't put something in fairly promptly it will then go into the 'standard' map mode after a few seconds.
Hope that clears things up a little bit, anyway.
EDIT - looking at your second para again this morning, I can see more what you're describing. I've just tried VC & PS while simulating a route:
- With PS 'ON' the VC icon sometimes appears (as described in para 1 above) and works ok; other times it disappears without seeming to accept a command, or doesn't appear at all [this last I also mentioned to Navigon some while ago]. The second point may be because the command wasn't recognised - if you want to verify this, say 'HELP' so that it recites the available commands to you.
- With PS 'OFF' the VC functions ok - a restart did NOT cause any problems.
There is obviously something not quite right at present, but if you are prepared to have PS 'OFF' for the moment, you will hopefully find that it works ok. If you still get problems on restart, I'd contact either Navigon or the retailer. _________________ David
(Navigon 70 Live, Nuvi 360)
Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 25 Location: The Great Lines Of Defence
Posted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 7:01 pm Post subject:
Followed your suggestion and disabled PS and in the process, I think I debugged the voice problem enough to see what exactly is happening.
On my 70 Live device, the assistant voice (important to separate - assistant voice over, rather than navigation voice over, which works 100% of time) doesn't work correctly approx 30-40% of time.
The bug is quite simple for me to replicate- if I call up voice controls, on average 4 out of 10 times, I will get no voice over. For example - if I touch the navigation screen - the green voice icon appears in the corner, and if I issue "HELP" command, quite regularly, I will see icon indicating voice over reading available commands and then icon expecting my reply. Sometimes it will issue "bong" sound expecting my reply, sometimes those sounds will be inaudible too. The fault is most evident in 2d map overview mode. In navigation mode, press the screen, choose magnifying glass, get to the 2d map menu, say help and at that point for me it will fail to read anything 7 out of 10 times. Green icon will be on screen, followed by text marker expecting further commands, but no voice can be heard. Sometimes, of course, it will work as expected, with full volume.
The bug is caused either by the way sound is processed in the device or, more likely by bad software that erroneously makes the sound level of the voice inaudible dynamically, for whatever reason. What leads me to believe it is something dynamically controlling volume is that sometimes, when I test this bug in demo mode I can hear barely audible, faint voice reading commands, other times it's just completely silent. Another oddity is that the "Volume Of The Assistant" in page 3 of General settings does NOT work. If I turn the volume half way, press ok, then immediately go back to the same menu, the volume is always set to full. It just won't remember the level it was manually set to.
I originally thought it had something to do with standby, but I'm now certain it is unrelated - the bug is there at all time.
Following simple logic, I though maybe language files were damages somehow, so I tried to switch the device to US English, but to my surprise, Voice Control options disappear the moment you switch from GB English, there is just no assistant for US English language choice at all. The bug, however persists with unit set to German.
Looking for cure to the sound problem, the biggest problem I'm facing, is inability to clean reinstall the device. 4Gb drive inside, where all the software resides is formatted in FAT32, thus prone to corruption, the repair tool creates FOUND directories with renamed files, you will never be able to restore to its proper destinations. By design you should have some way of restoring basic factory software. But there is none. What's worse - it seems that the Navigon Fresh software is having fit on its own. When I received the device, on first power up, I was offered upgrade from 7.7.3 to 7.7.4. I clicked cancel back then, thinking I could do it later, but, to my suprise, ever since the software says 7.7.3 is the latest.
And that's just a tip of the iceberg. There hasn't been a single day this week, without some sort of odd navigation bug showing on screen. To the point that on Tuesday I began taking screen shots of them.
On Tuesday morning I arrived at the ramp to Blackwall Tunnel Northbound in London to get stuck in grid lock of stationary traffic. Not a sign of trouble on Live Traffic, no chance of reversing down the ramp, no other exits from that point onwards - I decided to stay. We stayed for 3 hours. Tunnel was closed. Live Traffic eventually cought up with closure, after 22 minutes. And to my surprise after an hour "traffic situation had changed" and the unit offered alternative route. The alternative was: go via closed tunnel, all the way to A12, make a U-turn, return back via Blackwall Tunnel Southbound, take first exit, do several triumphant circles around B&Q parking lot and then foxtrot oscar in a random direction.
Blackwall Tunnel appears to be very confusing spot for Live Services. Every night, heading from West London to Kent, around 9pm Live Traffic informs me of "Show" around Blackwall Tunnel Southbound, affecting traffic in both directions:
No alternative routes are suggested. Starting new navigation will propose Blackwall Tunnel Southbound as a correct route in at least 2, if not all cases (not that you can see much from this screen grab, as the route overview is done in such detail, you have to be map surveyor to figure out where it will lead you):
The problem is - there is no "Show" at or around Blackwall Tunnel Southbound every night - the Tunnel is simply closed. It's been closed for almost a year now. It will be closed for another two years. Every weekday at 9pm for entire night. Being one of the only two river crossings for heavy duty traffic between Essex and Kent, it is the single, biggest, most important traffic closure in the entire capital. If you were to be lead by Navigon to the tunnel with a large cargo just to find it is closed until next morning, your nearest alternative is 30 mile each way detour to toll crossing in Darftord. To which Navigon actually doesn't really want to detour by the way, insisting no alternative routes are neccessary or immediately available in current traffic situation and suggesting you plow through the cones and break for the other shore against all odds. If this is traffic data bug - it is bad. If this is data interpretation bug - it is bad. This closure is not new. This has to be fixed.
On Wednesday night I found myself at Holborn Circus, going east over Holborn Viaduct.
I thought we were going straight on. Navigon thought we were going straight on. Even statue of Prince Albert thought we were going straight on. But the turn by turn voice over decided to go against the flow and suggested turn in a different direction. The whole thing acquired split personality for a minute - map was leading straight, turn by turn icon was pointing exit at 10 o'clock, the voice over was carefully pronouncing "In 10 yards turn left":
On Thursday, the Live Traffic decided to take a day off. No traffic announcements resulted in nearly 4h trip to cross 36 miles into Kent. Lack of quick and intuitive way to switch traffic services over to TMC certainly didn't help. Well...at least the icon looks pretty?
And finally - the madness of allowing and forbidding. For those that don't have Navigon - when your route includes toll roads or entry charges the software will ask for permission to use toll roads - either allow or forbid. But the whole thing is buggy - it understands toll roads but does not seem to understand toll areas and hours of operation. Such us London Congestion Charge Zone. And so every morning, when I navigate to work inside London CC Zone, it will ask "Toll Roads - Allow or Forbid", like it could get me to the edge of CC Zone and dig a tunnel. And every night, after work when I plot my way home from inside CC Zone, it will still ask if I want to avoid toll roads. Like there were any at that time of the night.
Joined: Sep 06, 2006 Posts: 1618 Location: East Hertfordshire
Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2010 2:35 pm Post subject:
Hi again, vOn. On the face of it you have a mixture of bugs and restrictions. The Voice Control being the main problem. I haven't managed to test to your detail yet (I keep getting embarrassed by funny looks from the family, whenever they come into the room hearing me shouting 'Forbid', 'Allow', and find me talking into thin air ). I will make some more time to find if the extent of the VC problem is similar on mine (I feel it isn't quite as bad at the moment). If you got yours from Halfords or somewhere similar, you might consider taking it back as the fault is so evident and see if you can get a replacement, which you can then compare.
The Blackwall and CC issues seem more to me a lack of time-sensitivity data in the map database, and I'm not sure if other manufacturers are any better (be interesting to get views). But the re-routing (or lack of) in the Live Services is another issue - at the very least Live should have reported the severe hold-ups even if the closure info itself was not incorporated in the database. I never seem to get re-routed - always a 'no suitable alternative route can be offered' sort of message. Another poster said they had this, and I am trying to see if it's a real problem, or just the fact that my traffic problems have just not been serious enough to warrant a diversion - I am a bit suspicious though and will probably be going back to query with Navigon at some point in the New Year.
And your 'go straight-on/turn left' situation looks to me as if there might have been road works there causing a minor diversion, which have been removed but not updated in the map. If you look very carefully at the display you will see a very slight left/right kink in the route icon, rather than actually being perfectly straight.
And beware Fresh at the moment - it's VERY dodgy and has bricked quite a few (different) units doing updates (it had a spell of doing this a year or so ago, as well). "Back-Up First" is even MORE important at present than usual.
I think the best way to resolve some of these problems, especially if the other 'pioneers' on this forum have more experience now they can add, will be for people to post a message on Navigon's Facebook page outlining the faults, with an email sent to facebook@navigon.com at the same time, with more supporting details (they always ask for that email to be sent anyway). This route is usually much more effective than raising an issue with their support desk directly, because the first-level people there are absolutely hopeless, and are much better by-passed.
It will be useful to try and get some feedback to Navigon in the next month or so - they must have had many comments from others as well and hopefully be working on a new release. (I also have a couple of other outstanding issues with Navigon that I haven't bothered this forum with, as there's no indication that others on here are suffering from them.) _________________ David
(Navigon 70 Live, Nuvi 360)
Also waiting to have a go with 3D, that's not popped up yet either. Would have thought birmingham was a big enough city to be included.
cubit - have you found it yet (I have)? If not, have you gone onto Q4 maps - there is a 3D-View "compatible with Q4" you can also download; if you didn't download it, maybe you're still on a possibly incompatible version.
BTW, have you managed to get an alternative route with a Traffic incident offered to you DIRECTLY on-screen yet (ie without going into the traffic list itself as I suggested previously), or is it still saying 'no alternative available' all the time?
I've downloaded the Q4 maps but only been on a direct run to the outskirts of Edinburgh so not really 'road tested' the latest maps in anger.It may be a 200 mile trip but not one to exactly test any navigation system
That said, on the trip home it did indicate roadworks enroute and i think it offered an alternative (twas -15 and midnight) but as they were nigh on 100 miles away i didn't pay too much attention. However, i did notice the traffic symbol was grey and not red this time. Perhaps it's finally kicking into life?
Still not seen the 3D maps pop up but i was considering downloading the 3D view for Q4. Will give it a go and try.
PS.
Regarding earlier comments about the Blackwall tunnel. I always get into problems round there, no matter which satnav unit i use. Yes, it might be a Northern thing - dislike of London traffic, but probably a bit harsh to blame the Nav unit, especially for the night closures.
Joined: Jul 11, 2005 Posts: 25 Location: The Great Lines Of Defence
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:39 am Post subject:
I thought I would continue my "debugging" of Navigon 70 Premium in this thread instead of creating a new one, however, if at any point my moaning and screenshot gallery becomes too much of a burden, please let me know.
First - note to potential buyers - I spend anywhere between 3 and 5 hours in South East/London traffic every working day - so the number of bugs I find is pure statistical coincidence rather than inclination to break my Nav device in all possible ways. It is my belief that casual user in less busy area might actually never encounter most of issues I describe in my posts. Never the less, since I already took the screenshots - I thought I would share them with the rest of forumites.
Mid December Navigon rolled out short lived software 7.7.4 with ROM 1.79. It didn't fix any of the bugs I previously described, but offered new, entertaining bugs related to GPS. Within hours from update I found my device somewhat confused and showing me my own route in third person "observe yourself passing by" view - an option I didn't even know was possible. Nav would start in normal "first person view" and then at some point just switch to "third person" and the only way to knock it out of the buggy view was to reboot. Below two examples, two different evenings:
The same software also introduced minor glitches in overlays.
Below is example of buggy route overlay. After 10 minutes of driving, suddenly directions continue, but yellow route is not visible on map anymore. Reboot required:
Among other noticeable bugs - the 7.7.4 refused to save "assistant" volume, always returning to full volume. Not that it bothered me much, since assistant doesn't work on my unit most of the time anyway.
7.7.5 with ROM 1.82 was rolled out in late December. It didn't fix assistant/voiceover bug of 7.7.2/3, improved GPS bugs (but not fixed them completely), but introduced galore of new bugs:
- Voice command replies often exit before screen is redrawn. Example - touch screen in the middle of navigation, ask for "new navigation", the unit asks you to choose "exit current navigation, yes/no", "yes" you reply, the next screen should be home screen and a question to choose either "Take me home/My destinations" etc, but before busy screen is redrawn, voice assistant times out, doesn't get the choice to ask anything and just exits, and you have to continue with your choices by touching the screen.
- Volume controls don't work. Volume is set to 10 and yells commands at maximum level.
- Proximity sensor cannot be disabled
- Minor but puzzling GPS bugs. Open parking, no high buildings anywhere, I ask for directions to London, 30 miles away. The unit, to my surprise produce something like this:
115 mile route as the only alternative, but with overlay clearly showing correct distance and time in the middle of the screen.
In general, I still on occasion get the "say what?" directions from the unit. On picture below - in 500 yards turn sharp right, but go straight for 2 miles:
When approaching "merge in turn" two-lanes-into-one type of situation, try to turn left instead, after half a mile turn around, then try to quietly sneak from the left of the merging queue, cut in and quickly run away:
I am also not convinced that the Navigon understands the idea of toll area, rather than toll road. On multiple occasions the unit tried to direct me into Congestion Charge zone in London, despite categorical "No" to use of toll zones at the beginning of the session. I'll try to get more info and proof in weeks to come.
Live traffic (when it works at all) seems to be working in reverse. The unit is absolutely immune to any long term closures, serious traffic incidents or police investigations, with exception of tiny, minor incidents, to which it will gladly offer alternatives.
Student demonstrations, collapsed buildings, scheduled maintenance, routine closures set for several years - anything to delay you between one hour and a decade - there will be no alternatives, just bulldozer through. But, give it minor, small, unimportant traffic issue and it will calculate alternative in a jiffy. Let's say - one lane out of three was closed for tree surgeons, the unit will try to save you one full minute:
Or if Thames Water start digging for gold somewhere in Camberwell, affecting one lane. The unit will do its best to shave a minute from your journey:
But encounter, for example serious accident involving lorry - road ahead and tunnel already closed for 2 hours to clean up the spill. Road closure indicated on the screen, red traffic icon, no alternative route found - just plow through, says the unit:
Police close the road, for 10 hours. Closure indicated on the traffic screen, but no alternatives suggested. Go ahead - says satnav - go through, what will they do - shoot?
Quote:
Regarding earlier comments about the Blackwall tunnel. I always get into problems round there, no matter which satnav unit i use. Yes, it might be a Northern thing - dislike of London traffic, but probably a bit harsh to blame the Nav unit, especially for the night closures.
I blame the Nav unit, because live services are aware of traffic for Blackwall Tunnel every single time, my beef is with the fact that the Nav understands that info completely and utterly incorrect. The tunnel is closed every night, from 9 til 6 in the morning. Every night from 2009 until end of 2012. It's a scheduled closure, broadcasted through every TMC announcement and through every traffic site. And yet every night, the Nav will display "traffic incident" and then try to route me through it, even though the crossing is closed shut. And if you're in large vehicle there is no other river crossing for tens of miles. And here are few examples of how the Nav interprets the reasons for it being shut:
I can only imagine how frustrating it would be, if I were in foreign country, didn't know my way around the area, spoke no language and my Nav, despite paid live traffic services, led me, possibly in large vehicle or with trailer to a dead end, locked down one way ramp closed for 8+ hours ahead.
Btw. I've even seen that "ceremony" notice at 4 o'clock in the morning one time. It's creative, entertaining, I'll give it that, but that's not why I pay for live services - to amuse myself in front of red cons across the road. :D
Last edited by v0n on Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Sep 06, 2006 Posts: 1618 Location: East Hertfordshire
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 2:11 pm Post subject:
Thanks very much for that vOn, and for your PM.
Fortunately (?) Navigon agreed mine was duff and are sending me a new one, no doubt with 7.7.5 on it . I'll be interested (if that's the right word) in how it works!
So I have posted a link to vOn's post on the Navigon Facebook page asking if anyone else there, including Navigon , knows about these software issues. Navigon seems to have gone to sleep since Wednesday so don't know when/IF they'll get round to replying. May spark something off though. I would certainly suggest you contact them vOn to see if you can get a replacement (if they say send it back, make sure you ask for it to go to their internal service team, NOT the external company they use for level 1 contact, EZI, as they are about as good as Navigon's 1st level support desk. ) _________________ David
(Navigon 70 Live, Nuvi 360)
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They say that if a VERY large number of POIs needed to be continuously cycled in and out, then there could be an effect on performance - I suspect this is actually an unlikely situation in practice.
). I will make some more time to find if the extent of the VC problem is similar on mine (I feel it isn't quite as bad at the moment). If you got yours from Halfords or somewhere similar, you might consider taking it back as the fault is so evident and see if you can get a replacement, which you can then compare.
. I'll be interested (if that's the right word) in how it works!
, knows about these software issues. Navigon seems to have gone to sleep since Wednesday so don't know when/IF they'll get round to replying. May spark something off though. I would certainly suggest you contact them vOn to see if you can get a replacement (if they say send it back, make sure you ask for it to go to their internal service team, NOT the external company they use for level 1 contact, EZI, as they are about as good as Navigon's 1st level support desk. 
