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Need Help to Identify Mobile Speed Camera position URGENT
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BigPerk
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only point I would make is that this example relates to US federal legal requirements. I can see various mentions of the procedure in the UK, but I don't know what the legal provisions actually are here, so I would advise taking advice if that's what's needed. But clearly the principle is very important.
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shaunppl
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skippy wrote:
shaunppl wrote:
What i dont understand is why a court will not accept these as evidence ??, i use this unit for flying so i know this unit is accurate.


You need to read and understand what a Chain of custody is.

If an independant third party downloaded the data from the GPS, established a chain of custody and is willing to act as an expert witness then you may get it admitted as evidence.

Be aware that they may take the entire tracklog off you and it could show that although your speed over the section where you were nicked was OK that your mate who borrowed your GPS on another occasion Wink Wink did some naughty driving.

Also remember that the Garmin GPS tracklog is an AVERAGE over many seconds whereas the LASER takes an instantaneous reading from your vehicle so the log may get shot down for this.

The good folks on the pepipoo website are probably your best bet. Good luck.


That may be correct, but the refresh rate for the Garmin GPS states it is every 1 second even if it was every 4 seconds it would still be able to pinpoint a speed above the limit at some point within the 40mph zone as the video range captured means it was 300 yards inside the 40mph zone and the zones extends to nearly 1 mile ?? the GPS does not show this and the whole jorney lasting some 2 hours from exeter to okehampton, then okehampton to tavistock and then back to exeter shows clearly that i was under the speed limit on all roads for the complete journey, and unless i am a computer wizard that knows how to alter a GPX record whatever that is and what can do it, (ok i know its a record of tracks etc) but how would one even know how and what to change, i find it confusing to operate such a device let alone anything else, i had to ask others who have used it to explain about the tracks and logging after seeing somewhere that these things actually do log all trips. as i said before certainly use GPS from garmin based on this design when i fly, all the inputs and outputs are done by the program when i plug it into the computer so there is no need to do anything apart from point and click the mouse to get what i want and that is im going here and leaving from here.
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Anita
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shaunppl wrote:
. . . unless i am a computer wizard that knows how to alter a GPX record whatever that is and what can do it . . .

But how do they know you're not, or know someone who is?

shaunppl wrote:
. . . What i dont understand is why a court will not accept these as evidence . . .

Can you prove the device wasn't being used in the car of a friend who was following you but passed the camera at a slower speed than you?
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BigPerk
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 2:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you DO go to court, it may be worth getting a sight of the inspection certificate for the laser device. I remember one person who showed that it was outside the proper period (yearly, I believe) which I think meant that its validation had lapsed and the reading was disallowed. I believe they have to be calibrated at that time as well, but not sure. If the gun WAS misreading as you say, then you may be able to sow some doubt.

As for the satnav log, as Darren said you could introduce it. It may well get thrown out completely but that's not certain - if you have any other 'evidence' in support, I would guess the magistrate might work on the basis of 'balance of probability'. Maybe you should lodge the readings somewhere (?) ASAP - the longer they are in your unprotected possession, the less admissable they would become I would guess.

But you would need to take proper advice to make sure it was worth going down such a possibly costly 'not Guilty' route - the odds are definitely stacked well against the punter!
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shaunppl
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anita wrote:
shaunppl wrote:
. . . unless i am a computer wizard that knows how to alter a GPX record whatever that is and what can do it . . .

But how do they know you're not, or know someone who is?

Well to be honest i cant

shaunppl wrote:
. . . What i dont understand is why a court will not accept these as evidence . . .

Can you prove the device wasn't being used in the car of a friend who was following you but passed the camera at a slower speed than you?


Unless he was 4 seconds behind me and he aint on the video clip shown, then the timing diff between me and the camera would make that impossible.
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shaunppl
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigPerk wrote:
If you DO go to court, it may be worth getting a sight of the inspection certificate for the laser device. I remember one person who showed that it was outside the proper period (yearly, I believe) which I think meant that its validation had lapsed and the reading was disallowed. I believe they have to be calibrated at that time as well, but not sure. If the gun WAS misreading as you say, then you may be able to sow some doubt.

As for the satnav log, as Darren said you could introduce it. It may well get thrown out completely but that's not certain - if you have any other 'evidence' in support, I would guess the magistrate might work on the basis of 'balance of probability'. Maybe you should lodge the readings somewhere (?) ASAP - the longer they are in your unprotected possession, the less admissable they would become I would guess.

But you would need to take proper advice to make sure it was worth going down such a possibly costly 'not Guilty' route - the odds are definitely stacked well against the punter!


Am gonna have to take Laptop with me then and the GPS unit and plug it in down there as i got no way of showing the data otherwise unless someone else knows of a better way
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Darren
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

We can argue this until the cows come home but the facts are that, as it is, the log may not be accepted by the courts. The only way you will find out is either on the day or if you take legal advice.

In just the same way as a speed camera has to be certified, there is nothing that compels a court to accept such evidence on face value. They may well discount it without any further consideration at all.

GPS is not a point accurate system and it is also not a certified speed measurement system so I repeat that if a conviction is going to mean more to you than just a fine and points you really should take legal advice and do so ASAP.

If you choose to defend yourself then expect little sympathy or assistance from the bench as to procedure etc.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shaunppl wrote:
Am gonna have to take Laptop with me then and the GPS unit and plug it in down there as i got no way of showing the data otherwise unless someone else knows of a better way

Quite! You need the evidence in a format that can both be read by the bench and prosecution AND the device on which it was recorded and exists.

It is pointless us debating this here as none of us are lawyers, can you post the link to your Pepipoo post here please?
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shaunppl
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darren wrote:
We can argue this until the cows come home but the facts are that, as it is, the log may not be accepted by the courts. The only way you will find out is either on the day or if you take legal advice.

In just the same way as a speed camera has to be certified, there is nothing that compels a court to accept such evidence on face value. They may well discount it without any further consideration at all.

GPS is not a point accurate system and it is also not a certified speed measurement system so I repeat that if a conviction is going to mean more to you than just a fine and points you really should take legal advice and do so ASAP.

If you choose to defend yourself then expect little sympathy or assistance from the bench as to procedure etc.


No disrespect, i am not argiung this point, i clearly understand what you have said, i have taken advice, and also have looked many cases from the pepipoo site, as well as criticism and advice from lots of indivduals and like you some ex police officers.

If i was genuinly speeding i would without any hesitation put my hand up and say faircop, i got caught speeding over 15 years ago, i knew i was speeding and even though i could have blamed it on my workload and boss for insisting i get there by the time he had already booked me in, i would have been lying, i did indeed say to them it was a fair cop and they gave me 30.00 fine and 3 points, i learnt my lesson and they were very fair and comended me for actually owning up without a fuss.

But fair is fair and i would not be persuing this if i had any doubt i was indeed wrong.

I will be defending myself (and take note of what you have said) and will take along my witness and the computer and GPS unit and try my best to make the point that reasonable doubt does exist and can only see what they say.

I do appreciate all the advice and criticism raised and given, and hold no malice for anyone.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As you will find out, where motoring offences are concerned, the law is heavily biased against you. Innocent until proven guilty should be guilty unless you can prove otherwise!

I'm sure we all wish you well. Sadly it seems that unless you're a footballer who can afford a star defence then innocent or otherwise you're fighting a very difficult battle.

Keep us informed!
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Anita
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

shaunppl wrote:
I do appreciate all the advice and criticism raised and given, and hold no malice for anyone.

I don't think any criticism was intended by anybody, and I'm sorry if it came across as such. You said "What i dont understand is why a court will not accept these as evidence", and we were just trying to point out some of the reasons they might give, in the hope you might then be prepared for them.

Like Darren I wish you well, and will be interested to hear how you get on.
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BigPerk
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 11, 2010 8:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One additional thought, though not sure whether you could make use of it. If the mobile really WAS playing up then you may well not be the only one arguing their innocence. So if this particular magistrate was hearing several similar pleas and arguments about that spot/camera, he would presumably feel there might be some merit in what you say. In that case your readings would perhaps have more weight.
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darren wrote:
It is pointless us debating this here as none of us are lawyers, can you post the link to your Pepipoo post here please?


May I just say that if this is only about 60 quid and 3 points (and you aren't facing a ban) then you should probably plead guilty and accept it.

If you plead not guilty then there is a good chance that the prosecution will dismiss the credibility of your evidence, produce an expert witness of their own and the case will go against you with 3 points, 60 quid fine plus 500 quid in expert witness costs. Mad

I'm not suggesting that you broke the law or tampered with the evidence but it wouldn't be difficult to do. The prosecution wouldn't have much trouble demonstrating that the tracklog you have produced could have been tampered with to remove any incriminating evidence. From what I understand, the judge will give stronger weight to the police evidence with their tried and tested equipment and carefully managed chain of custody.

If you do take it to court, then you may want to raise the stakes massively. ie, try and question the validity of every single ticket issued by the officer that night with his (possibly) faulty gun or modus operandi. If you do this then the crown might decide that the stakes are too high and just drop the case.

I've had it lots of times with parking tickets (not a criminal matter, I know but similar principle). They have a license to print money here - often what happens is that they will let the odd difficult case drop rather than lose it and potentially have a load of cases automatically dismissed or be forced to change the way they work.

Darren is exactly right. The folks at Pepipoo have done this many times, I think we have gone as far as we can in this forum. You need specialist legal advice and think hard about if you want to fight this one or just take it on the chin.

Pepipoo is your best bet from here on, post us a link so we can follow the case.
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 12, 2010 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just a comment without going back through all the postings and setting my data logger to check, surely if you take your laptop into court will you need a wifi connection to show the route on google and does the trace log not show enough information i.e time but not actual route to verify with the google trace, just a thought.
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shaunppl
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PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2010 5:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

aj2052 wrote:
Just a comment without going back through all the postings and setting my data logger to check, surely if you take your laptop into court will you need a wifi connection to show the route on google and does the trace log not show enough information i.e time but not actual route to verify with the google trace, just a thought.


I have the information from the logs and timestamps of the creation of the GPX it started logging at 08:45.35 01/06/2009 then stopped logging 09: 42:12 when i was stopped at my sons house in Okehampton, it then starts again 10:10:27, and logs the journey to tavistock where i waited to pick up my sons partners sister from college at 10:41:57 and departed at 10:58:09 and headed straight back to exeter arriving at 11:51:47

I have been asked if i can find out the creation, date, modified date and last accessed date for the file if someone can advise me i would be gratefull on how to get these details and where they would be..

Regards


shaunppl
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