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Are UK Speed Cameras Illegal?

 
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Darren
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 2:19 pm    Post subject: Are UK Speed Cameras Illegal? Reply with quote

Speed Cameras, GPS, SatNavsA claim that more than 6,000 speed cameras are illegal is being tested in court this week.

Aitken Britherstone, a Cheshire businessman is appealing against his conviction for speeding. His counsel, Michael Shrimpton alleged that a 1991 amendment to the 1988 Road Traffic Offenders Act requiring Parliamentary Approval for speed camera devices had not been correctly observed.

Prior to the change the law required only the Home Secretaries approval. Successive Home Secretaries had failed to seek the requisite approval and so it is alledged that many devices have not obtained the required approval.

The case is expected to end up in the House of Lords but it is reported there are as many as 80 similar cases awaiting a hearing.
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TCoopz
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If it goes to the house of lords then its all down to who pays the biggest back hander to get the law changed.
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253
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 05, 2009 6:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was listening to the solicitor on radio news the other day.
In a nutshell, in summing up his case he said
"The use of speed cameras requires Parliamentary approval. They have always received Ministerial approval, but that is nothing like the same thing".

Be interesting, that's for sure.
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tt4uk
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

253 wrote:
I was listening to the solicitor on radio news the other day.
In a nutshell, in summing up his case he said
"The use of speed cameras requires Parliamentary approval. They have always received Ministerial approval, but that is nothing like the same thing".

Be interesting, that's for sure.


well lets hope we can claim back any fines we have already paid.
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 12:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

tt4uk wrote:
well lets hope we can claim back any fines we have already paid.

Realistically speaking, do you think that this would be allowed? If the case is won by Aitken Britherstone then it opens the flood gates for motorists to claim back their fines, plus allow them to possibly claim for increased insurance costs (due to penalty points) and what about those people who lost their driving licence due to the tot up of 12 penalty points and subsequently lost their jobs? Surely they would in addition claim for lost of revenue and possibly stress even psychological damage?

The above would cost not just millions of pounds but probably billions of pounds! Who would pay for it? Not those responsible, but us tax payers!

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tt4uk
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Privateer wrote:
tt4uk wrote:
well lets hope we can claim back any fines we have already paid.

Realistically speaking, do you think that this would be allowed?

Regards,


Probably not, but as they are a revenue funding piece of equipment, they have had the money "Illegally" if the case is proved.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 06, 2009 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Appeal rules speed cameras lawful

A court has ruled that speed cameras authorised since 1992 were legally implemented by the Government after a man claimed that ministers had evaded a Parliamentary process.

Judge Jonathan Gibson said the Home Secretary had operated correctly, and therefore dismissed the appeal.

He added: "It seems to us that if Parliament wishes to exercise control it can do so by repealing the statutory instrument."

Copyright Press Association 2009

Mr Brotherstone now faces a 10,000 legal bill for prosecution costs. As for the appeal against the original speeding conviction, the court was told that there was at least a serious doubt as to the accuracy of the 52mph reading.

But as Judge Gibson had been impressed with the evidence given by the LTI 20/20 operator he chose to believe his statement the vehicle had been travelling in excess of the limit and that his opinion had been corroborated by an accurate laser-gun reading.

So there was doubt that the laser gun was accurate? If you honestly believe you are innocent you risk losing 000's if you dare to defend yourself, is that justice? Should we just pay the 60 fine and accept we cannot realistically defend ourselves when the risk and costs if you lose are so high?
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hal1but
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 09, 2009 10:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

tt4uk wrote:


well lets hope we can claim back any fines we have already paid.


Only if you'd stood up in court and said "not guilty".

The fixed penalty form that people sign and return is an admission of guilt in and of itself. The speedcamera legality and readings all become irrelevant the moment you sign that form.
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UKHABU
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not so.
Whilst you are correct in that if you reply to a NIPS you ARE admitting guilt
because until a reply is received to a NIPS notice the authority's do not have a person's name to charge and they can ONLY charge a person not a car - hence the NIPS is sent to "the owner of vehicle XX99 XXX" they rely on you to tell THEM who the actual driver is.

An interesting tip : If you have too many points or don't want any more points on your licence then DO NOT REPLY TO THE NIPS notice.
You WILL get a 100 fine BUT THEY CANNOT THEN prosecute you for the speeding offence as they do not KNOW who the driver is.

If the NIPS was issued "illegally" in the first place ie the siting of the camera
was not legally sanctioned then you would have a case for compensation.
There have been several cases of fines etc being rescinded because of problems with the legal sanctioning of cameras.

This very thing happened to myself on the A11 near Wymondam a few years ago - I received a NIPS but before I had a chance to challenge it I received a letter informing me that it had been issued in error. It wasn't a technical issue as I was exceeding the limit at the time.

I do know the reason why it was revoked but i was told later by a policeman that several people had claimed expenses lost because of tickets actually issued and fines/points removed.
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Snudge
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2009 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

UKHABU wrote:

An interesting tip : If you have too many points or don't want any more points on your licence then DO NOT REPLY TO THE NIPS notice.
You WILL get a 100 fine BUT THEY CANNOT THEN prosecute you for the speeding offence as they do not KNOW who the driver is.


...but you still get 6 points for not identifying the driver.
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UKHABU
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry that's not correct.
They can ONLY prosecute if they know the drivers name.
If you do not identify the driver they cannot prosecute other than for the offence of not returning/completing the NIPS - which is a different offence.

What happens when the vehicle is owned by a Company?
The Company Director/Secretary is responsible for supplying said info if not then they get fined.
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PaulB2005
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PostPosted: Sat Apr 18, 2009 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh and by the way, it's upto a 1,000 fine (not 100) PLUS 6 points, for failing to identify the driver.

Try these scenarios to see how the theory "Don't reply to NIP = No Points on License" fails

1. Owner / Driver.

I own vehicle, reg ABC 123. As the registered owner i receive a NIP. I ignore it hoping to avoid points on my license. Result: Prosecution for failing to identify the driver. 6 points + Fine

FAIL

2. Company Car (same also for Hire Car).

I have a company car, reg ABC 123. The company is the registered owner and they know i am the "owner" of the car at the time of the offence. Technically the company own the car but I've signed for it. The company is contacted requesting identification of the driver at the time / date of the offence.

a) Company gives Police my details.

I receive new NIP. I ignore it hoping to avoid points on my license. Result: Prosecution for failing to identify the driver. 6 points + Fine

FAIL

b) Company withholds or has lost my details.

Company is prosecuted for failing to identify driver.

I WIN - COMPANY FAILS

However, the chances are no company will bite the bullet for you or have inaccurate records over the person who signed for the vehicle.

The theory that ignoring a NIP will help keep points off your license is a hoax.
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