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Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:03 pm Post subject: ANPR Cameras and the PGPSW Database - comments..?
Having now identified what these new cameras I see being added to various places near me actually are, thanks to this site (cheers PGPSW), can anyone add anything further.
In particular, I am curious as to WHO receives the information from these new fixed ANPR sites.
Is it the local police, or the Highways Agency, or if they are for Tax Evasion, is it the DVLA, or who?
Does anyone have any info on how they work.
ALSO, whilst they are not Speed or Red Light Cameras, they do still have the potential to 'cost us dear' - so does PGPSW not have any plans to eventually include these in the database as a new category, OR, quite understandably, is the view taken that whilst it would INDEED be useful to know where these sites are, unlike speed cameras and the moral view that it is ok to know where they are so you can drive 'safe' past them, for ANPR cameras the only people with anything to hide or worry about are NOT the sort of people this site should be helping?
i.e. As far as I can think of scenarios, it would only be Tax Evaders, Uninsured etc, that need to avoid these.
I understand this thinking if so, but there HAVE been some occasions where I could not get to the post office in time, and thus my tax was out for a day or three - but of course, once paid, it is paid for that period too, so NO loss of revenue or defrauding done here. Thus it would have been HIGHLY DESIROUS to know where these sites are!
So on that basis, I am not wishing to open a can of worms. But rather engender constructive debate...
Do you think that eventually, perhaps not now, but in the future, that the new fixed ANPR sites should ALSO have a category in the database, and be reported by members?
I appreciate the BIGGEST benefiters here would be the more grossly illegal - tax evaders, uninsured etc.
But PGPSW has not previously been a "Morals Police" in relation to current types of cameras (albeit I understand the difference).
BUT - there ARE occasions where even the fair and honest amongst us have forgot, or not been able to tax on the correct day, and have been a few days late until it was paid in full etc.
Being that does NOT make me a terrible person any more than slowing down for known cameras does, but it DOES mean that it would be nice to know where these ANPR sites are on route the the nearest Main Vehicle Licensing Centre, to get urgent taxt etc.
So... comments from members, and input from Admins please- what do we all think?
Please though, I'm not trying to be troublesome here, but just float the theory etc...
Let me sum it up like this:
"Certainly even with NOTHING to hide, and fully legal, I would STILL always like to know the location of the new type ANPR sites for various reasons - not least of which I am suspicious as to what else they might collect in future etc. On that basis alone, is there merit in including them in the database in future, or soon, so as to have a database head start if they DO change what information they collect, and they become a clear concern to us members...?"
Joined: Jan 04, 2006 Posts: 9323 Location: Durham, UK
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:24 pm Post subject:
In other words...
Will PGPSW be adding ANPR camera locations to the database?
I believe the answer always has been, and still is no. Feel free to use the Search function to look for previous discussion....
The fact the database contains speed cameras is just an extension to the lists of camera locations the government publish anyway. Just in a nice convenient format. The government don't publish lists of ANPR cameras for good reason.
As for your tax disk you can pay for it upto 15 days before it's due, you get a postal reminder and most people can pay online (it takes 5 minutes) so not being able to find a Post Office is a bit lame, in my opinion.
Last edited by PaulB2005 on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:30 pm Post subject:
Which fixed sites are you referring to?
We have stated before that ANPR sites will never be included, the reasons for their use are many but tax evasion often brings other offences to light such as no insurance, driving licence offences, vehicle offences etc.
The fixed sites also fulfil an anti-terrorist role. Which fixed sites are you referring to? _________________ Darren Griffin
Last edited by Darren on Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:33 pm; edited 1 time in total
Will PGPSW be adding APNR camera locations to the database?
I believe the answer always has been, and still is no. Feel free to use the Search function to look for previous discussion....
Those would be YOUR "in other words" then, not mind, as my post had a LOT more to it than just that, hence why it was not so much of a duplicate posting as you infer **
I actually READ the first THREE pages of posts on this in the General Cameras Discussion board - thinking that for a recent subject like this, it would be on the first three pages at least - maybe I just got bogged down in too much detail reading all of them, and got blind to it - it happens all to regular for people.
Aside from which, that's only the SECOND part of my post.
The FIRST part was what actually got me typing it.
WHO actually uses, or gets, or controls the data from these cameras?
So no total duplication error, or heinous crime here.
Crikey, the start page tells me what a friendly tolerant, lovely place this site is.
Yet my first two days here have been absolute hell on earth ** - is it always like this round here, for those not so sharp peole like me? Doesn't the site actually want new members {grins}.
Nah, on a serious note though, I will AGAIN, go and search for what you say, though I DID already and have read through THREE pages of posts.
But instead of the lovely warm new member welcome, can you shed any light on the first reason for my post as I suspect your pretty knowledgeable...
Who receives the data, how quickly, etc, and for what purposes and so on....
We have stated before that ANPR sites will never be included, the reasons for their use are many but tax evasion often brings other offences to light such as no insurance, driving licence offences, vehicle offences etc.
The fixed sites also fulfil an anti-terrorist role. Which fixed sites are you referring to?
Hi Darren...
Near where I live (not gonna say exactly where, in case you DO ever include them, so I have at least a chance of being first to report them {grins}), there are a whole raft of new fixed video camera type mounts, usually multiple cameras. My location is listed next to my avatar however.
I have always wondered what these were, but from reading your site yesterday mate, it seems to indicate they are fixed ANPR sites...?
Apologies if this is not the case, but when it lists the photos of what NOT to report, the photo of what you describe as ANPR cameras, is pretty much EXACTLY the same as these PERMANENT sites next to where I live, so I naturally took it to mean that these are what they are.
They are around 6 mile from where I live for one site, and 5 miles for the other in a different direction, so I will try and get a photo if I can if this would help - albeit one of the sites is a fast dual carriageway without any suitable parking nearby to it to capture it.
All I can really say is that they are FIXED, and they look identical to the photo on your Submissions page that states what NOT to submit, and lists this photo as ANPR cameras. It has the picture of the vans with the pop down flaps at the top, and also a gantry style arrangement photo too.
This is what is near to me, and has been for over two months, without any word or info from council or police as to what they are, and former workmates not forthcoming with insider info either.
Would it be better if I continued this discussion in another thread too, if there is a better thread already existing for it too mate...?
Aside from the London Congestion Zone and new Low Emissions Zone systems, ANPR is almost exclusively used by Police and DVLA alone.
However, from your description they are more likely just local authority CCTV systems.
Mmm - intersting info...
Alas, my link to the North East Safety Camera Partnership is that until last year, for the last five year I WAS Local Councillor, Darren, believe it or not, albeit for the neighbouring Authority to where these cameras are.
From contacts I have in that Council, they do not know what they are for - or that is the line I am given anyway - it's not to say it's true!
Additionally, having just gone back and looked again, I am even more happy that they are identical to the photo of the ANPR column on your Submissions page - the one where it mentions the difference is the lack of the word SPECS.
It is obviously more helpful if I state where they are I concede, so they are located on the A1058 "Coast Road" Newcastle Upon Tyne, just on the boundary almost with North Tyneside Council, as well as another site on the West Road A186 into Newcastle.
In effect both sites being the West and East gateways into Newcastle Upon Tyne effectively, hence why I think ANPR sounds more plausible.
54' 59.43.57 N and 1' 33.45.84 W Is a location of one of them, IF I remember the place correct.
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:09 pm Post subject:
Ah Ok, in that case it may well be ANPR. In which case, in answer to your question, fixed sites such as these are controlled by the Police Authority.
The Times mentions such a scheme and there are numerous committee reports from Northumbria in connection with ANPr strategy. _________________ Darren Griffin
Ah Ok, in that case it may well be ANPR. In which case, in answer to your question, fixed sites such as these are controlled by the Police Authority.
The Times mentions such a scheme and there are numerous committee reports from Northumbria in connection with ANPr strategy.
Damnation.
After reading your link, that's exactly it.
It even mentions Newcastle as one of the places for the first rollout of it.
Nightmare.
I'm all for law abiding, and even being scanned and checked THERE AND THEN as it were, as the Northumbria Police Volvo Estate ANPR car does (or at least I am told the retention period is MUCH shorter), but having your details kept for TWO YEARS...?
Nightmare.
So for those that pass them, often in each direction each day, the Police will know exactly when they went into City, and when they came out of the City, every single day, for up to two years.
The guy who said we are sleep walking into a surveillance society was miles wrong...
We are being whisked into it on board the space shuttle and near light-speed.
And yes, I am an ex-polis, and yes, I am totally against liberal do-gooders, and I'm all for ID cards.
But I am FOR checks there and then - that is the key...
Scanned as you pass to see if you are insured and taxed, or a recorded suspicious vehicle, and if you are clean, wiped from the search and the database.
Being stopped late at night and asked to see your ID card. If you have it, and all is well, no name recorded down.
THAT is the kind of thing I support. Not this society where your every breathing, waking moment is recorded for posterity, verification, scrutiny, and analysis for years to come.
What have we become Darren **...?
Oh well, no wonder, the uncle wouldn't say anything, and it's not my brother's Area Command for him to know either.
But I'll have strong words with supposed Councillor friends about not telling me.
Cheers Darren - PGPSW came good I reckon where them lot couldn't.
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:30 pm Post subject:
I'm not personally concerned by such matters as I stand by the 'nothing to hide, nothing to fear' belief but I do understand the concerns and appreciate I may be guilty of a misplaced level of trust!
But when you see the data mobile phone companies hold, ANPR pales into insignificance!
If your mobile is on they can track you everywhere you go ands the system holds the information on which base stations you were logged into ALL the time the handset is powered up!
I'm far less happy about that as they are by and large unregulated. Vodafone already sell data to Tomtom for TRAFFIC data usage (non personal I realise but still). _________________ Darren Griffin
Had a interesting chat (off the record) with a VOSA chap in a Checkpoint! His view on these cameras is that yes they are used for many reasons from anti terrorist to mearly traffic monitoring! but he believes that when the goverment finally have the balls to change road tax over to a pay as you go system(normaly straight after a general election) these cameras will be in place and ready to go!
Just so you know you could NEVER have a accurate database for ANPR Cameras the reasion for this is on the lorry i drive there are two ANPR camers on the roof these collect info from the number plate on every vehicle i pass or that passes me this info is sent from the computer in my cab stright to the DVLA computer and that is how they know if your vehicle is being used with NO insurance, or tax, or mot, DVLA then use this info to despach vehicles to remove these from the road if they dont have tax. It is my understanding that tax has to be out of date for a certion amount of time before the vehicle is removed all this info is also accesed by the police and in some cars the info is desplayed on a monitor in there car Thats how they know you dont have insurance tax or a mot.
They know before they ask you.
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