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I was only wondering if there could be unwelcome consequences with the equipment , for example if the re-transmitted signal were stronger than the original.
I don't see this as a problem either. All you're doing is acting as a repeater. It makes the signal stronger in the car so the GPS can use it. If it leaks a bit, all it does is make the signal stronger near the car so other people's GPSs can use it.
It all really hinges on the technicality of broadcasting on a licensed part of the spectrum. If it was an entirely passive device (maybe you could do something with a cavity resonator, or some sort of waveform regenerator) then it would be legal to boost the signal strengh locally.
The legislation is really designed to stop people broadcasting other stuff all over the L1 and L2 frequencies.
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Wed Jul 12, 2006 10:32 pm Post subject:
meestermartinho wrote:
Someone from Ofcom phoned us yesterday to bitch about it.
That's interesting, so they are going after retailers then. Have they actually had real problems with people using these re-rads or are they just getting a bee in their bonnet about it because it is technically illegal?
Surely they are widely used in other countries without any problems?
Another example is the iTrip FM transmitter you can get for your iPod, they are legal in many countries but not in the UK. That doesn't stop people buying one from America and using them here though. _________________ Gone fishing!
The radio spectrum regulations are very comlicated and the majority of them are there for a reason. Let's take the GPS re-rads - firstly you are not allowed to broadcast in this frequency brand, secondly if you were allowed to that you equipment should be tested and certified before being allowed on the market, because, surprisingly enough, radio transmitters never ever broadcast on one frequency even if they have been specifically designed to do so - you will have harmonics, sidebands, the nixture of various frequencies, etc, etc. These might interfere with other electronic equimpent, including those used in life-critical applications.
It's not a sinister government plot to deprive you of your GPS fix, it's just a regulation.
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
Posted: Thu Jul 13, 2006 9:31 am Post subject:
Eldar wrote:
These might interfere with other electronic equipment, including those used in life-critical applications.
Fully agree, but they do make a mockery of their own rules at times, it is not illegal to sell, own or use a mobile phone in this country, and yet these devices DO cause interference with many other electrical devices.
As they are radios I can only assume they have been tested and cleared for use by the same department that is now trying to enforce its own stupid rules, its about time rules that were written in the 1940s were brought a little more upto date - Mike
However, it does concern me when people worry more about the likelyhood of being caught, than about the consequences of their actions.
Because anything illegal must be morally wrong, after all the government says so.
Not the point I was making at all.
Legal and moral are not the same thing (which from your comment you think the same way). Breaking the law can be the moral thing to do (for example, I don't think Schindler was acting within the law), just as some legal actions are not moral.
I was simply referring to the attitude, not the actions, and yes, fully agree with Mike's comments about a mockery. But unfortunatly it would appear that someone made a mistake with phones, or are we talking something more sinister - I have an uncontrollable suspicion when significant amounts of money are concerned. But just because something else causes similar problems, doesn't mean that a new product is therefore OK.
Another point to ponder:
If gas were discovered today, do you think that we would be allowed to run it throught the streets into peoples houses?
These might interfere with other electronic equipment, including those used in life-critical applications.
Fully agree, but they do make a mockery of their own rules at times, it is not illegal to sell, own or use a mobile phone in this country, and yet these devices DO cause interference with many other electrical devices.
The radio spectrum for the GSM transceivers was allocated back in the early 80s and every new phone model goes through a type approval process and every phone is tested on the production line for compliance with the spectrum regulations, therefore we can always be certain what levels of interference we are getting from the GSM phones.
Apparently no such thing has been done for the GPS repeaters.
If you build your own car, you'll have to submit it to the certain tests to prove that it's roadworthy, you cannot take it to a public road just because there are other cars around.
If gas were discovered today, do you think that we would be allowed to run it throught the streets into peoples houses?
:D
There are so many examples like that. What about if tobacco was discovered today? Alcohol? Internal combustion engine?
But on the original topic, I presume that many of the GPS re-radiators have passed some sort of testing so that they don't leak all over the spectrum? My iPod FM transmitter had passed the FCC checks, so even though it was strictly illegal in the UK I had no qualms about using it (I got rid of it because it was crap, not because it was illegal). OTOH, I have a pair of PMR446 radios which I would not use in the USA because not only is it illegal, but the frequencies overlap with some other important stuff (I checked).
My iPod FM transmitter had passed the FCC checks, so even though it was strictly illegal in the UK I had no qualms about using it (I got rid of it because it was crap, not because it was illegal). OTOH, I have a pair of PMR446 radios which I would not use in the USA because not only is it illegal, but the frequencies overlap with some other important stuff (I checked).
Carl, could you explain to me why you have no problems using equipment which passed American FCC tests in Europe, but won't use eqipment which passed European tests in the USA? Do you know the reasons why iPod FM transmitters cannot be used in the UK?
Carl, could you explain to me why you have no problems using equipment which passed American FCC tests in Europe, but won't use eqipment which passed European tests in the USA? Do you know the reasons why iPod FM transmitters cannot be used in the UK?
It's pretty simple. The FM band is roughly the same in the US and the UK. So the worst that could happen is that you deprive someone within about 10 feet of your car of their non-essential listening pleasure. On the other hand, IIRC, the PMR446 band overlaps with some sort of maritime emergency frequencies, which sounds like a bad place to be transmitting.
Carl, how do you know that an *american* FM transmitter doesn't radiate sidebands/harmonics falling into *our* emergency services bands?
Well I don't, but I think it's unlikely. The FM band is the same in the US and the UK. The GPS frequencies are the same all over the world. The PMR/FRS frequencies are different in the US and the UK.
Do you think that the manufacturers of the FM modulator chipsets have "special non-leaky UK/Europe" ones (for licensed users in the UK, or unlicensed users in other parts of Europe), or that they all come off the same production line?
It is obviously the different equipment in use in different parts of the world which makes it essential that each Country performs their own testing, rather than relying on results elsewhere in the world.
Given the possible consequences of interference, I believe that an assumption that something will not be safe until it has been shown that there are no problems, is the only sensible way to proceed.
In view of the potential problems with transmitting equipment, it would appear that there is no alternative other than to make the use of unapproved transmitting equipment illegal. Allowing it to be used until it is shown to be unsuitable, would appear not to be a sensible option.
Do you think that the manufacturers of the FM modulator chipsets have "special non-leaky UK/Europe" ones (for licensed users in the UK, or unlicensed users in other parts of Europe), or that they all come off the same production line?
I'm a professional RF engineer with over 15 years experience in GSM, GPS and satcomms, please, please trust me - I know what I'm talking about. You can have exactly the same chip, but depending on how you use it, the level of the RF radiation both in and out of the intended band of operation can be different even if you use exactly the same schematics.
So you don't agree that this is the usual RA/Ofcom heavy-handedness and out-of-date legislation?
In my previous messages I listed a small number of reasons why we have this legislation and I haven't seen any technical evidence that the devices in question (FM transmitters and GPS re-radiators) are compliant with this legislation. Without this proof any talk about "the usual RA/Ofcom heavy-handedness and out-of-date legislation" is pointless.
There are ways of changing the legislation, for instance a number of years ago radar detectors became legal as a result of a court hearing.
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