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COPILOT 5 UK ROUTING
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Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PONDEROUS wrote:
There may be something in Dave's protest that neither he nor ALK can guarantee to get it absolutely right before publishing a review or marketing a product. However, both reviewers and manufacturers could have said so long before now - in, respectively, their reviews and promotional material.

First I would like to state for the record that at no point in time have we EVER said in any review that you will not experience any problems from a piece of software. We know there will always be problems, developers are human, bugs come from badly written code and they may only exhibit problems when doing particular tasks, or when in particular map areas. There will always be problems with software, nobody, not even the developers can guarantee they can not only fix, let alone find every single bug in a piece of software, so why would we be able to do something that a developer couldn't ? Now if we had said that "this piece of software is perfect and bug free and we can guarantee you won't exhibit any problems from using this software" then I can see why you may have a case to complain. Sheesh!

PONDEROUS wrote:
Dave now suggests that there might be conflicts with other applications running alongside Copilot. However, I checked with ALK whether Copliot would run alongside other applications (including GPS-using programmes)before purchase, and I have tried Copilot since with nothing else running.

Every manufacturer of Pocket PC does something different with the PPC. Different code in ROM runs on startup to supplement the MS code. This is why you will see some problems, e.g. with XDA's with CoPilot, but not problems with others. The same goes with other software, utils, or even some DLL's that may already be pre-installed now into storage area or ROM. This is why PND's are much more desirable because there's less messing around you can do with them.

PONDEROUS wrote:
What is inescapable is that the PocketGPS team apparently cannot bring itself to consider the remotest possibility that there could be something very wrong with Copilot. Thus, Dave, in his latest post, on top of his earlier unfortunate contributions, uses the adjective "perceived" when referring to the reported errors, as if he believes that, for example, Copilot's instructions to turn around in a motorway are really just imagined.

I have never said there is nothing wrong with CoPilot. On the contrary. Every application we test here has problems, whether it's bugs, routing errors, config errors, install problems. CoPilot does have memory leak problems, and this has been proven, but like I have said in constant posts previously it's highlighted more on what you install, how much memory you have available and what you're doing with your PPC. Same goes for routing issues, maybe it's not necessarily affected by memory utilisation, but it is affected by how the maps are interpreted in a given area, and that can be down to how the maps have been catalogued by NAVTEQ.

PONDEROUS wrote:
Perhaps - SD cards notwithstanding - Dave should devote his energies to re-testing the product and amending his review, as others, who have yet to make a purchase, will be reading it.

Give me the time and pay me to do it, and I'll spend some time doing just that, but that's what these forums are here for, to give your user experience. Your user experience may not be the same as others, or it might well be, but that's where people get the opportunity of reading the review and then reading user feedback. If we wanted to hide anything and show that every software was the best software out there, then we wouldn't have these forums open. But the forums are here for you to comment on a product and to voice your opinion.

However, bitching and moaning about a product here (alone) won't do much good, if you have serious gripes with ALK or their software, you need to convey this to them, direct. ALK like most other companies read these forums, they will see you bitching and moaning and know full well that if they were to reply here, they would be lynched. Like with every company you need to go through proper support channels to report these problems. ALK will take on comments posted here and I know they are still working on fixing some of these, but if you don't report the problems officially to ALK, and they don't hear any others complaining about these problems, then they probably won't spend much time investigating the problems.

Our reviews are created unbiased. We may like the look and feel of software over other products, and likely also dislike too, but the reviews are tested over a given period and reviewed accordingly. We try to break the software, by which I mean we try to physically break it, force routing problems and compare it with other software we have reviewed. We were the only site when Navman brought out their SmartST to find the memory issues with 3630 and also the blue bug issues which we reported. If we find problems we'll report them, honestly either in the review if they were found within that time frame, or in the forums. Your experiences may be different to ours when it comes to using the software because of the location you are in, the routes you expect and also the hardware you are using. That's fine, and if you do find problems it's best to report them here, but the priority is to report them direct to ALK.

Crash has hit the nail on the head on a number of points he's responded to also.

Everyone has to remember a navigation products prime life is to get you from A to B. Whether it gets you there 10 mins earlier, or 20 mins later is here nor there. Many a time have I driven without a navigation system to use a paper map to get me to the town, and I've wanted to get to the town center, I then follow the ringroad signs knowing full well that ringroads (inner ones) go around the town center and to follow the appropriate signage, only to find myself driving around in circles and taking a signpost that eventually takes me back out of the town when I believed it would take me closer to the town center. I have yet seen a navigation product to act like this, and it's core purpose in life is to get you from A to B. Some products do it better than others period. Others do it better in some locations better than other locations.
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PONDEROUS
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks to Crash for a useful perspective.

It is indeed useful to discover that Copilot may be the best available given the state of development of Pocket PC-based applications - which is what I think you are suggesting. Perhaps if that is what the reviewers mean, then that is what they will say in the future.

Having said this, I do not accept your suggestion that cricitcism is synonymous with discourtesy. Similarly, there is a difference between letting a matter drop when all is cleared up (your flogging a dead horse point) and doing so when a party not only will not accept fair comment but clouds the issue.

Nevertheless, I wish Dave well with his future reviews.
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rento
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 23, 2005 5:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be onest i think all of these gps software have something wrong with the maps, the software, look and feel and god knows.

However if I was to say which one is the killer app, I would have no doubt, is CP5. Yes it has bugs but at least it has a very, very large range of features and almost proper maps. Others provide narrow functionality and made-up maps.

Now given that the price is not any higher than ur average tt, I think is a good buy.

I dont know why this companies, developers and mapping men cant get right one software... I say one! It's amazing that between so many of them there isnt a flawless one. We will always have to put up with something... Evil or Very Mad

Will CP6 be a flawless app? I wouldnt hope too much
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topgazza
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 27, 2005 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've just read this thread from beginning to end. I'm knackered. However...

Crashbikers comments fit my experience to the letter. I set off on my journeys and only pay attention when I am near to my destination, how near is near I decide at the time. I have been travelling from Basingstoke to Bedminster Down south of Bristol. fairly straight forwar and apart from getting a bit confused with the norious routes through bristol city to the outskirts, I ignore the dubious instructions, it copes OK provided I pay more than a little commonsense to its view of life. Should we have to do this? Probably not at 135 but it works well if you do and for the disappointment is the lack of direction (pun intended) by ALK. They must have an enourmous list of issues and a simple statement of a patch or upgrade to address some would be a useful start in PR.

Its a shame that those folk here that rely on their Sat Nav to provide a door to door service find that its falls short. That is a major disappointment and you can understand them being very miffed. They have a valid point and I think the difficulty in a disappointed expectation can never be recovered. Especially if there is little chance of the the product ever being able to meet it. Oddly enough I have also been travelling along country lanes around Bramley, Mortimer and Burgfiled a lot and it seems to have no problem at all so maybe as Dave says its a "local" Navteq issue in some of the areas mentioned in this thread. Still frustrating though

Overall I have not experienced the problems others have, or at least not to the same degree to cause me pain. There are some serious flaws in the lack of user control over choosing routes and the mysterious disappearence of POI notifications. Again ALK are remiss in not notifying us. At least they could let Dave know what is planned and he could pass this on. That type of omission is inexcusable. They need to pull their socks up.

I must admit reading this stuff makes me reach for my TT3 disk but after another trip to Bristol today and a re route thanks to my Trafficmaster Freeway warning me of a problem, CP5 took the reroute and got me there OK. So I still rate it as OK for me. I would have liked a better avoid road feature but once again over to you, ALK. Whats happening?
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PONDEROUS
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's interesting to read on this thread how people learn to live with a deficient application. I am no exception; however, Topgazza is right to say that it is frustrating. It is particularly so for those who, like me, need navigation aids for their work.

We have to call on numerous addresses every day, and it is very frustrating indeed as we have to check, and if necessary adjust, every journey, however "short" as the chances are CP5 will increase the distance by up to 90%, as we have seen. Just what do the experts mean when they say "shortest"? It beats me, I have to say.

This brings me to reflect on a further disappointing contribution from Dave, who after all is a reviewer and forum manager, as follows:

Quote:
Everyone has to remember a navigation products prime life is to get you from A to B. Whether it gets you there 10 mins earlier, or 20 mins later is [neither] here nor there.


I'm sorry, but if a journey should take five or ten minutes, and some of us will do twenty, thirty or more of them per day, then Dave's advice is not of great consolation. For 10, or even 5, minutes extra on each journey is neither necessary nor acceptable. That is true not only from the point of view of work productivity, but also of road safety and the environment.
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topgazza
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave is fair though in his comments. For someone who does numerous trips a day from a variety of start points the whole industry product range is pretty bad. Is it early days ? I suspect it is but I must confess doubts over the will or ability of the companies involved ever getting it close to acceptable. There will always be something to blame, usualy the maps. Ultimately it will down the the highly complex algorithms in the software in what is a multi layed process. I work with programmers most days so I can understand the issues.

HOWEVER! The answer for TT3, CP5, Garmin et al is to set expectations a bit more realistically. There is certainly, in my view, a prima facia case for misleading advertising. You only need to read statements about "never getting lost again" etc to see how the perception is set way beyond the capabilities. Sure, you'll never get actually lost again but as for the various products ability to get you to your destination in the most efficient way possible is in doubt. Methinks they make claims like that as a catch all generalisation which has the effect of glossing over the purpose of sat nav. Which is not the fear of getting lost but getting somewhere with some degree of efficiency and accuracy.

Having said all that they are guides only, pretty good guides when taken alongside some knowledge of the route. Poor for short or medium journeys of the type Ponderous and many others do. If you don't care about fuel costs Rolling Eyes then fine but who doesn't in reality ?

I travel probably 10 12 times a month around the south of the country and the Midlands. CP5 has never let me down but I have found myself dictating the main route but planning on the PC is great and often removes that problem. Overall I repeat that all the sat nav companies should come clean and put clear, open caveats around their products. In other field they would be withdrawn fron the market. Heavens, we put up with Microsofts rubbish for plenty of years but I'm afraid ALK and others give the impression its a money making exercise. I'm sure its not true but their customer services is appaling, thats for all of them. Until thats sorted out and regular patch upgrades appear to fix obvious faults they still have a lot of lost ground to catch up on
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

topgazza wrote:
For someone who does numerous trips a day from a variety of start points the whole industry product range is pretty bad. Is it early days ? I suspect it is but I must confess doubts over the will or ability of the companies involved ever getting it close to acceptable. There will always be something to blame, usualy the maps. Ultimately it will down the the highly complex algorithms in the software in what is a multi layed process.


Don't think that all Sat Nav systems are as bad as CoPilot, my Garmin unit doesn't crash all the time and gives far better routes. The Garmin is not 100% perfect but will produce fairly high quality routes and it doesn't come up with howlers like Southampton to Hastings via the M25 or London to Dublin via Belfast.

Most of CoPilot's problems are NOT the fault of the maps, they are due to poorly written software and bad routing algorithms.
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topgazza
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know Skippy but the common blame is the maps. I agree totally with the software point, as I made in my post. I have to say my CP5 has never crashed on my PDA or PC. Once you eliminate all the usual culprits such as config/software/CF orSD card etc etc on a PDA it still boils down to the seemingly poor work on the CP5 algorithms.

Although, again, I have not experienced it in a way thats caused me a serious problem but I know its there. Whatever experiences we all have had, good bad or indifferent its about time ALK took stock and responded in some way. The continued silence stinks.
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topgazza
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 31, 2005 11:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skippy just ran the Southampton to Hastings route on my CP5 PC version. Selected avoid motorways and shortest route.

Chose the following route

A27 Porchester
A284 passing by Littlehampton
A280
A20025
A270
A26 Firle
Then onto Hastings. pretty much a straight line all the way. Distance 100miles.Of course I could download it to my PDA .Goodroute?
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topgazza
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skippy just ran the Southampton to Hastings route on my CP5 PC version. Selected avoid motorways and shortest route.

Chose the following route

A27 Porchester
A284 passing by Littlehampton
A280
A20025
A270
A26 Firle
Then onto Hastings. pretty much a straight line all the way. Distance 100miles.Of course I could download it to my PDA .Goodroute?
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 12:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

topgazza wrote:
Selected avoid motorways and shortest route.
pretty much a straight line all the way. Distance 100miles. Goodroute?


Yep, that's OK.

Now try Routing Type: Quickest, Vehicle Type: Auto and click on the Restore Default button to get the default routing options for motorways etc.

I get 134 miles via the M3, M25 and the A21. :x

Now try London to Dublin, Routing Type: Quickest, Vehicle Type: Auto. I get 584 miles via Stranraer and Belfast.

Add a stop in Holyhead and I a Quickest route of 363 miles. The "Shortest" route is just 1 mile shorter at 362 miles / 18 hours 38 minutes. This route goes via the M6 and M56 which is obviously not the shortest route.

If I manually add a waypoint to route via the M54, A5 and Holyhead then I get a Shortest route of 339 miles / 18 hours 16 minutes. OK, so a reasonable route at last, but why should I have to spell it out to CoPilot?

Garmin's Mapsource (based on the same Navteq maps) gives 349 miles (Quickest) or 337 Miles (Shortest) without needing any waypoints.
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topgazza
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 7:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I did both and indeed the default settings takes the oddest route but the alternative worked. A a bit of forthought needs to be applied to get the "best" route which is great if you have access to your PCand a bit of time to learn it but on the road on a PDA you can still do it but its not as easy or flexible. I'm not suggesting you wouldn't apply some forthought of course but you can get CP5 to provide a better route and often quickest is obviously not the best as it will always select motorways even if its out of the , logical, way.

Of course it comes back to the original key issue. Algorithms. Or rather the lack of. Whilst Garmin will be better in some respects I'm sure it has its own pitfalls in others, price being a non technical one but relevant to most. Doesn't excuse CP5 and its promise. My own opinion is that ALK were too keen to promote "new features" and "latest maps" at the expense of getting the routing right first. All thats happened is a bunch of p***ed off consumers and again, the deafening silence is not helping. I am also surprised other aren't joining in here but maybe they have given up complaining. Maybe we are just optimists who think someone who gives a damn, ALK?, actually reads this stuff. I hope so. Mind you I travelled from Basingstoke to Bristol today on a pre planned route and CP5 was flawless, weird voice included.
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

topgazza wrote:
A a bit of forthought needs to be applied to get the "best" route which is great if you have access to your PCand a bit of time to learn it but on the road on a PDA you can still do it but its not as easy or flexible.


I am using a Smartphone so it's a lot harder to check the route using the small screen. I want a sat nav system I can trust rather than having to check that it hasn't come up with some daft route and correcting it! 8O

topgazza wrote:
Of course it comes back to the original key issue. Algorithms. Or rather the lack of. Whilst Garmin will be better in some respects I'm sure it has its own pitfalls in others, price being a non technical one but relevant to most.


The Garmin is not without fault, but the routes it chooses are generally high quality. It even found the occasional shorter/better route for trips I thought I knew well. Wink

Most of the bad routes I get with the Garmin are due to map data errors rather than routing algorithm problems. CoPilot seems hell bent on sending me down the motorway at any cost.

topgazza wrote:
Mind you I travelled from Basingstoke to Bristol today on a pre planned route and CP5 was flawless, weird voice included.


I tried this one on the PC and once again CoPilot has a magnetic attraction to motorways, routing via the M4 for both shortest and quickest route. The shortest route is actually via the A4. The other difference is that Garmin gives a quickest route via Newbury Bypass (A34) whereas CoPilot routes via Newbury town (about 5 miles shorter than via the bypass). Any idea which is actually quicker? :o

Maybe they should dump the "Quickest" calculation and rename "Shortest" to "Quickest"? Laughing
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topgazza
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I feel your pain Skippy. On a bike as well if I'm right? Now that would severly tick me off as well. At least in a car you can twiddle with the controls much easier. Completely concur with the sentiment of having a SAt Nav you can trust. For sure I use mine slightly restricted if the route it gives me is in doubt, say BAsingstoke to Coventry. I drive the way I prefer and let it take over nearer the destination. Not ideal for 135 by any means. If its an area I don't know I trust it as I wouldn't know the local shortcuts anyway. I guess after 30 years of driving all over the UK I wouldn't feel the same irritation as the guy that travels around Norfolk and finds it pretty useless.

Although I really do find the PC CP5 pretty much OK especially if I have time to preplan the trip. The Avoid motorway slider always seems to work, such as the Southampton/Hastings trip. Its serious weakness is the way it plots routes ...end of story. I appreciate that even though I haven't had any severe problems personally. Today it took me to Bristol again and included a reoute due to traffic and did a spot on job. Go figure!

Colleague has a Garmin Street Pilot III and he loves it. For an extra 90 I could have bought one instead of my setup. I have my doubts about CP5 now despite it being OK for me, about its future. They all suffer from severe faults though including the likes of TT3. People always seem to have to find workarounds,

I dunno. Until Dave gets something out of ALK, if he is, its like bashing our heads against a brick wall.
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 02, 2005 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Looks like you guys are missing the point here. Ok, so you went and bought a SatNav for a hundred quid or so. Did you ever stop to think just why you did it? Please, don't tell me it was because of this feature or that or what it promised. Your first point of choice was the price. I'm pretty sure most of you chose a PDA solution because it was cheaper. And only THEN you went for CoPilot because it offered this or that. Of course, CoPilot happens to be one of the, if not THE, most expensive one of the lot, but it still is a cheap piggyback solution. And that's what it is at the end of the day. And that's why maybe you should put your hands in your pockets or drop a peek in your bank accounts and look at those that are sitting there (or think about all those lagers they had bought 8) ) because you din't buy a Garmin Street Pilot or a VDO Dayton or an OEM system together with your car. So ask yourself now - was the saving worth it? I can say it sure was for me, although I'm going for an OEM SatNav in my new beemer anyway Wink (gonna keep CP as a portable though) Does it offset the inconvenience of all the bugs that CP has? Again, works for me. Does that mean you should be happy about it? No, by all means not, butt the living daylights out of ALK until they bend over and deliver what they got paid for. But please don't set your expectations above the price you paid for it. Do you write angry letters to your car dealer when you discover that the pram won't fit into your Takuro Spirit ...errr... Toyota Yaris, even though it were advertised as "the compact with the most space in its class"? (which it isn't :D but forget it) Or you find that the pram fits, but only when you unscrew all the wheels and disassemble the carcass? Smile Probably not, because you know that you bought a Yaris because a Hummer was a bit too dear. You just bite the bullet and unscrew those wheels if you only need to do this occasionally, or you trade in your Yaris for something bigger. If you look for a perfect digital camera, you won't find any, even within the same manufacturer's lineup. The one that has the best zoom is for some mysterious reason totally crippled in the area of Auto Focus, the one with the good AF doesn't have any image stabilization and so on. Of course when you buy the camera, all the features on the box are there. My point is, you will always have to compromise when it comes down to software and experience shows that the less you pay the more you must be ready to compromise.
The way I see it, and I must agree with Dave on this point, a general purpose SatNav (of which a PDA solution is definitely representative) is there for you to get from A to B instead of getting lost in the process. So it told you to go down a motorway instead of the scenic route? Well , but it got you there eventually, didn't it? I have also found myself mad while trying to persuade CP to show me the route and not sneak out onto a motorway, but that's my problem, it isn't really the purpose of this SatNav - if I know the route anyway, I take it without needing turn by turn instructions and leave CP in Navigation mode to show me my position on the map as a safety net. I'm driving around a city that seems to consist of tunnels. A PDA SatNav is completely useless when you're down there and the tunnel has 6 exits and you must take one of them. If I needed to be guided in tunnels, I would not be buying a PDA solution, I would have to get a wired one which would cost more. I didn't, but I can sustain an occasionally mistaken exit. If you can't then you have the wrong navigation system. Same goes for those extra miles that CP is adding to your journey. As for Ponderous, the SatNav you seem to require in your line of work is definitely not to be found in the PDA sector. Even so, I would advise you to test them all out in turn. However, for military precision and "seven nines" failsafe operation you would have to make friends with someone in RAF Smile But I'm afraid a hundred squid just won't cut it in your case.
Please don't interpret this as a defense of ALK and their in many ways buggy product, believe me I've done my share of bithicng and moaning in this forum Laughing Just stop and consider also your requirements before you choose the next one, luckily CoPilot is not the only SatNav on the market, and your experience is worth more than those 135.
For those who decide to stick around with CoPilot like me, all I can say is be prepared to wait a looong time for the issues to be resolved, as ALK don't seem to be exactly bent on fixing up all those severity 3 and lower issues. And sulking on the forum ain't gonna help it any. If you have issues, put them in writing, e-mail them over and THEN follow up on the phone and ask for a specific resolution date. If nothing else it should at least keep the phone support hopping and might satisfy your thirst for revenge somewhat Twisted Evil

Cheers,
Eriks
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