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New Mobile Phone Penalties Affect SatNav Use Too
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sussamb
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:14 am    Post subject: Re: Double Standards yet again Reply with quote

Nthkentman wrote:
Two way radios are excluded.

Err... Depends on your point of view on exclusion


Err ... No it doesn't, it depends on the legislation Wink

... which states that two way radios are excluded.
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mistersaxon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sussamb wrote:
@mistersaxon

At the risk of repeating myself sat navs do not fall under the legislation as they are not capable of receiving AND transmitting.


Many PNDs offer integration with the phone to allow you to take calls by pushing a button on the PND screen. So they are capable of transmitting whether or not you have chosen to set this up... Moreover Tomtom devices also send traffic and position data to Tomtom to allow them to determine if there are queues etc and you cannot use the traffic service without agreeing to this so again, they are capable of transmitting. Other manufacturers' devices likely do the same but I can't say so specifically... They DO fall under the legislation but have not yet been identified as doing so.

But let's assume a policeman doesn't know that and so a PND won't get you into trouble so readily (for now) - any recommendations for such a device as a replacement for a satnav app on a large-screen phone?
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sussamb wrote:
@mistersaxon

At the risk of repeating myself sat navs do not fall under the legislation as they are not capable of receiving AND transmitting.


Devils advocate: what about those with a built in sim card for traffic alerts etc. The location must be SENT over the mobile network and then also RECEIVED by the device Wink
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Kritou
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And if I may be an advocate for the Devil's very own advocate ...... all GPS devices receive data! Confused
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If this is the legal definition of a handheld device: Handheld device – something that "is or must be held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function".

then a phone in a mount won't be an issue - touching a button on the screen doesn't require it to be 'held', it's in a mount afterall. Essentially it's a hand movement akin to changing radio stations etc.

Nitpicking, I know, but surely this is the sort of thing that would end up dragging out for months in court as the general argument against such a prosecution would be that it wasn't "hand held".

"If you are using your phone in satnav mode then you should have it in a fixed holder and may not interact with it at all"
I think, like most legal-based forum discussion, we need to see the actual legislation and get some proper legal bods to comment...

Until then, take it easy and try not to touch your bits while anyone's watching Wink
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Tatsfield
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So my Volvo has sat nav controls on the steering wheel so that I can operate it without removing my hands from the wheel. The screen is not touch sensitive. Is it legal to operate the system while driving? That is not to be confused with whether it is wise from a safety point of view as it requires taking the eyes off the road to verify that the commands given from the steering wheel controls have been accepted into the sat nav system. Frankly I cannot see how anyone can know if the sat nav is being personally operated or not. I leave it on
all the time to use the Pocket GPS World speed camera database so the thing is running anyway. The law has good intent but it has difficulty in keeping up with the advances in technology which is going to leave grey areas and loopholes. Responsible drivers will avoid looking for these as they are going to degrade safety not improve it.

My sat nav also has voice command capabilities but these are so erratic and require so much reference to the screen that they are positively dangerous to use when driving and when stationary the thumb controls on the wheel are faster and more reliable!
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Tobas
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The government's advice: http://think.direct.gov.uk/mobile-phones.html

"It is not illegal to use hands free, but any time a driver’s attention is not on the road can be dangerous."
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sussamb
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
sussamb wrote:
@mistersaxon

At the risk of repeating myself sat navs do not fall under the legislation as they are not capable of receiving AND transmitting.


Devils advocate: what about those with a built in sim card for traffic alerts etc. The location must be SENT over the mobile network and then also RECEIVED by the device Wink


Valid point, I wasn't aware of any sat navs with a built in sim card. Even then they are probably only receiving, traffic via the mobile network and location via GPS. Need to bear in mind the over arching legislation though, rather than taking things in isolation:

The Regulation includes any "device, other than a two-way radio, which performs an interactive communication function by transmitting and receiving data".

It states that a "mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function". "interactive communication function" includes:

sending or receiving oral or written messages;
sending or receiving facsimile documents;
sending or receiving still or moving images; and
providing access to the internet
There are two exemptions:

2-way "press to talk" radios, such as used by the emergency services and taxi drivers
Using a hand-held phone for a genuine emergency call to 999 or 112 if it would be unsafe for the driver to stop.
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Last edited by sussamb on Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
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sussamb
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tatsfield wrote:
So my Volvo has sat nav controls on the steering wheel so that I can operate it without removing my hands from the wheel. The screen is not touch sensitive. Is it legal to operate the system while driving?


Yes.
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MrGumby
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Never mind the law - we all know, if we care to admit it, that we're easily distracted from driving. So just don't do anything that takes your attention away from the road, regardless of whether it's legal.

My car has Bluetooth built in, also voice control. I can leave my phone in my pocket or its holder, untouched, and make calls using voice commands, answer them with a button on the steering wheel.

But I'm only too aware that, during a call, I tend to drive robotically. I stop looking ahead, don't monitor my mirrors properly, etc. That's dangerous, so I don't use my phone in the car at all. My contacts are aware of that and know they'll have to wait until I stop before I respond to messages.

It wasn't so long ago that no one had a phone in their car and we all managed perfectly well.
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sussamb
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MaFt wrote:
If this is the legal definition of a handheld device: Handheld device – something that "is or must be held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function".

then a phone in a mount won't be an issue - touching a button on the screen doesn't require it to be 'held', it's in a mount afterall. Essentially it's a hand movement akin to changing radio stations etc.


Agreed. I'm seeing a friend of mine who is a sergeant with roads policing shortly, I'll confirm all this with him Very Happy
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sussamb
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For those who want the law:

Mobile telephones

110. (1) No person shall drive a motor vehicle on a road if he is using

(a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or

(b) a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4).

(2) No person shall cause or permit any other person to drive a motor vehicle on a road while that other person is using

(a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or

(b) a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4).

(3) No person shall supervise a holder of a provisional licence if the person supervising is using

(a) a hand-held mobile telephone; or

(b) a hand-held device of a kind specified in paragraph (4), at a time when the provisional licence holder is driving a motor vehicle on a road.

(4) A device referred to in paragraphs (1)(b), (2)(b) and (3)(b) is a device, other than a two-way radio, which performs an interactive communication function by transmitting and receiving data.

(5) A person does not contravene a provision of this regulation if, at the time of the alleged contravention

(a) he is using the telephone or other device to call the police, fire, ambulance or other emergency service on 112 or 999;

(b) he is acting in response to a genuine emergency; and

(c) it is unsafe or impracticable for him to cease driving in order to make the call (or, in the case of an alleged contravention of paragraph (3)(b), for the provisional licence holder to cease driving while the call was being made).

(6) For the purposes of this regulation

(a) a mobile telephone or other device is to be treated as hand-held if it is, or must be, held at some point during the course of making or receiving a call or performing any other interactive communication function;

(b) a person supervises the holder of a provisional licence if he does so pursuant to a condition imposed on that licence holder prescribed under section 97(3)(a) of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (grant of provisional licence);

(c) “interactive communication function” includes the following:

(i) sending or receiving oral or written messages;

(ii) sending or receiving facsimile documents;

(iii) sending or receiving still or moving images; and

(iv) providing access to the internet;

(d) “two-way radio” means any wireless telegraphy apparatus which is designed or adapted

(i) for the purpose of transmitting and receiving spoken messages; and

(ii) to operate on any frequency other than 880 MHz to 915 MHz, 925 MHz to 960 MHz, 1710 MHz to 1785 MHz, 1805 MHz to 1880 MHz, 1900 MHz to 1980 MHz or 2110 MHz to 2170 MHz; and

(e) “wireless telegraphy” has the same meaning as in section 19(1) of the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949(3).”

A device is deemed to be hand-held if it is actually held or must be held at some point during the course of performing an interactive function. This concept includes making or receiving a call, sending or receiving a text, surfing the internet etc.
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mistersaxon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

6.c.1 would include receiving traffic alerts, regardless of whether any such data were sent from the device so even TMC alerts would be against the rules.

Mind you, by the same definition getting traffic alerts from the radio would also count since you could call the radio station to report a traffic problem (and most stations request you to do so "providing it's safe and legal") so their traffic reports are "interactive".
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sussamb
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 12:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Again, you're taking a point in isolation ... This is about hand held devices Rolling Eyes
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mistersaxon
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 03, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sussamb wrote:
Again, you're taking a point in isolation ... This is about hand held devices Rolling Eyes


Am I? The OP said
OP wrote:
If you are using your phone in satnav mode then you should have it in a fixed holder and may not interact with it at all. So no tapping menus, switching modes etc. Dedicated satnav devices are not included in this legislation but if you're distracted whilst using one then existing careless or dangerous driving legislation can be used.


My point is that even a PND might be construed to fall under this legislation on the grounds above. If it's ok to tap away on screens that are in holders then the whole discussion here is moot because nobody hand-holds a PND or their phone whilst using a satnav app . But if the OP is correct then a PND in a holder (or a phone with satnav app) are all in the scope of this. Always have been in fact, but now the penalties are more severe there's a financial incentive for traffic oficers to get a bit more nitpicky (and they already are a bit zealous judging by some stories - eating an apple at a red light shouldn't get you 6 points and a big fine, or a ban if you are a new driver).
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