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Subscription Renewal & New Members.
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K13ehr
Lifetime Member


Joined: Jul 12, 2008
Posts: 284

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darren wrote:

Ordinary POIs are free to all, you have never needed to be a subscriber.


I didn't know that, thanks Darren.

Darren wrote:
I posted only a few minutes ago stating that any change would not affect existing life members.


I must have been typing

Darren wrote:
Regardless of the wish to keep the status quo, we can't afford to, that's fact. We have to change the offer or we risk not being able to run the service at all. And that will cause a much bigger upset than simply altering the terms of any reward


It's obviously more difficult than I imagined then and you must do as you need to do to keep the site running, perhaps a 50% discount for 5 years or along those lines, so people who do contribute camera data still feel valued, maybe instead of doing competitions offer prizes for the most new cams per month/year
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MaFt
Pocket GPS Staff
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Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 14703
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm growing more to the 1 year award to be honest. I think it's a fairer way to award people.

The persistent submitters will basically still get a free lifetime sub as they will keep submitting cameras year after year. Those who submit a single camera will be rewarded for a year, after which they will no longer be 'helping' us as such so then they revert to paying.

Is it fair for us to keep rewarding someone who only submitted once and no longer 'helps out' with the database? The reward IS for helping keep the database fresh, after all...

MaFt
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moosehead
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Joined: Jun 30, 2005
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:44 am    Post subject: Lifetime free subscrition for camera spotters Reply with quote

would have thought that a 1 year subscription free period would be appropriate. Those who are the most active could then keep their membership free if they keep spotting and reporting
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
The Other Tired Old Man


Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 10118
Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

No for my two pennorth.
Darren wrote:
Current suggestions are we move to a one year free membership, or we award 6mths credit for every qualifying camera up to a maximum of two years.
MaFt wrote:
I'm growing more to the 1 year award to be honest. I think it's a fairer way to award people.

The persistent submitters will basically still get a free lifetime sub as they will keep submitting cameras year after year. Those who submit a single camera will be rewarded for a year, after which they will no longer be 'helping' us as such so then they revert to paying.

Is it fair for us to keep rewarding someone who only submitted once and no longer 'helps out' with the database? The reward IS for helping keep the database fresh, after all.MaFt
I think that MaFt's comments about continued submissions is the best argument. Putting a 2 year limit on a prolific submitter seems a little harsh for the reasons MaFt cited.

It should be that a for two or more valid submissions in the same subs year gains the submitter two (or more) years FLM (with no limit) so the realy prolific submitter benfits fully, but the occasional one, as MaFt says, benefits for just one year. If there was a 2 year (or any) cap on FLM, the second and any other submissions just before the end of the period would not benefit the 'prolific' submitter who has made a realy good contribution to the database, but has now run out of cams to report.

Can you not devise some sort of projection using the different options to see what the financial situation would be in each case, based on the current membership/reporting scenario?
EDIT: How about a Poll to test the feelings of more people with a link from the newsletter?


Last edited by M8TJT on Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:07 am; edited 1 time in total
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pj26964
Lifetime Member


Joined: Sep 18, 2006
Posts: 4

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 9:59 am    Post subject: Subscription Renewal & New Members. Reply with quote

Hi

This is my first post, so apologies if i break any etiquette rules.

I have subscribed for many years and have willingly paid the fee, I have only managed to submit 1 'new' camera as I do limited mileage, less than 20k a year, I understand the financial implications of too many non-paying members, perhaps a reduced fee instead, maybe 50% disc for life or 25%?
Just my 2 pence worth.

Many Thanks

PJ
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Bunty1948
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Joined: Apr 27, 2011
Posts: 121
Location: Northallerton North Yorkshire

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:03 am    Post subject: Re: A good response Reply with quote

Darren wrote:
DennisN wrote:
My free lifetime membership isn't worth much (as the Newsletter says, less than 40p per week)

I'd dispute that statement. At 19.99/yr it adds up. Even assuming it was only of value to someone for 5yrs that's 100 saving, a substantial sum for many.

But it's a fact that only a small proportion of users report and the incentive is there to encourage people to do so. If you subscribe and don't report then fine, your fee supports the service. But we have to ensure that we continue to have sufficient subscribers to keep the service viable both financially and to ensure the data is kept current and uptodate.


I treat the 19.99 as an insurance premium to reduce the risk of 60 spot fines and more importantly 3 points on my licence. On a long journey how easy would t e to clock up a dangerously high number of points.

As I'm retired now, I find myself often in unfamilar territory, and although not an habitual breaker of speed limits its oh so easy to miss the occaisional speed limit sign, and so easy to go with the traffic flow above the stated limit. I have reported a small number of "new cameras" and "out of date " sites, but not as a means of earning money, but as a means of knowing that I have the most reliable database on my device. However, I have always been too late to claim free membership, but I will still report them. My licence is worth a whole lot more than 20. And as a proportion of my annual cost of driving, it doesn't even figure on any scale.

I would hope that most if not all users of the database acknowledge that it is better to pay a "nominal" 20 per year than have the system close down. Where would we turn then; to the likes of Tom Tom and their equally unreliable competitors.

Think about it, it is surely value for money.

Alan
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Peter1947
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Joined: Apr 20, 2006
Posts: 16

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:04 am    Post subject: Lifetime Subscription Reply with quote

I have an idea perhaps this has already been aired but here goes-: For everyone that submits a camera, how about every so often, say every 6 months have a drawer and the winner receives a free subscription the following year?
For life time subscriptions perhaps you should consider ending all these some time in the future and go along with my suggestion above?
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DennisN
Tired Old Man
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Joined: Feb 27, 2006
Posts: 14861
Location: Keynsham

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

May I start by saying that my status as a Moderator is not that of representing the site or its owners, so that nobody gets the idea that I'm "one of them or one of us". These are just my own personal views.

With acknowledgement to my advancing years and retreating memory capability, my recollection is that the decision to start charging for the database was taken in 2005 when the maintenance of it became so much that it could only progress with income for the owners and a paid full time administrator.

Previously, it had been run and provided free, by a bunch of guys who were dead keen. They had always previously said it would run forever and would be free forever - very naiive of them, n'est-pas? And they had to start charging. My own view at the time was that the service was so valuable that I had no problem with "The Team" charging for it - I don't know of anything else which comes for free.

The uproar from a few members of the community was loud and strong and I have to say I'm amazed those same members have not yet started to comment here - they occasionally have a little pop even nowadays, but perhaps they are now seeing sense? It was eventually decided that existing contributors would get free membership and that future contributors would get the same. Again, very naiive to put this forward as forever. There HAD to come a time when the finances were back to 2005 levels, or indeed lower. The very point made by the OP for this thread.

So reverting to charging for membership is inevitable, with the only alternatives being to discontinue the database OR maybe sell the site - I can imagine there are several companies out there who would willingly buy it, all of whom currently charge at least as much and mostly more for their own inferior offerings, how much more would they charge us for the best one around?

Whatever, if we don't start paying again, we'll lose it anyway.

Darren, the statement of not withdrawing lifetime membership from existing ones is hasty. Instead, give existing Lifers a free six months to start with. As has already been said, a number of us continue to report new and seen agains and have no thought of doing otherwise in the future. I'll just repeat my heartfelt plea to provide a subscription method which doesn't involve Paypal. Please, please, please!

So it's really only a case of finding a suitable reward for those who only report if there's a reward to be had - personally I feel the database owes nothing to that selfish sort of reporter, but if needs must, then think of something for them - a toffee apple and their name in the newsletter. The free one year suggestion isn't bad, but make it plain that the year starts from the week of the award, and is NOT accumulated to previous awards (i.e. if I get a winner this week, my free year starts today. If I get another win next week, my free year starts next Friday and is NOT added to the year I've got this week). Also make a simple statement that winning this week does NOT get a year added at the end of your existing subscription, even if you only renewed last week - tough!
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Dennis

If it tastes good - it's fattening.

Two of them are obesiting!!
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malc77
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Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we all agree PGPSWorld provides a great service.
- I reckon some incentive on reporting a new camera change should be retained- say six months (rather than lifetime) free use to existing subscribers. -I don't think making cash payments would be so good, and
I don't think having a lucky draw would be so attractive to me ....as I generally never win anything!
The important thing is to keep it going - many thanks.
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malc77
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Joined: Jul 11, 2006
Posts: 27

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think we are all a 'Community' and unless we are very selfish individuals would report new camera sightings even if we are already 'life-members' and there is nothing obvious in it for 'us'.

After all we may 'miss' that same camera ourselves next time we pass it, and it isn't in the database!

So, perhaps it would be worth reminding users of these 'community' benefits.
I am doubtful about cancelling the free lifetime use to existing lifers as (unless it is absolutely vital) that would be seen as extremely unfair by many, so I would suggest all other avenues be explored, such as free six months for future successful reporters.
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DennisN
Tired Old Man
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Joined: Feb 27, 2006
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

malc77 wrote:
I am doubtful about cancelling the free lifetime use to existing lifers as (unless it is absolutely vital) that would be seen as extremely unfair by many.

Why? We've had a good run for our money (maybe except those who've won in the last couple of weeks) and a startup of free six months gives us time to save up! I already set aside a fiver every week when I collect my old age pension, for our holiday funds, so another 40p will be achievable.

Oh and by the way, when I said withdraw from existing Lifers, I include Moderators and Verifiers too.
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Dennis

If it tastes good - it's fattening.

Two of them are obesiting!!
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Chilternphil
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Joined: Nov 07, 2007
Posts: 3

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 10:59 am    Post subject: Worth and Value - paying for the database Reply with quote

First off thanks for the service.

It seems to me that this is a business (providing a product of value) which has grown out of a community of people delivering a social good. And many I guess still report cameras as they wish to give rather than receive.

I ask myself would I rather return to the higher cost, less accurate camera database of my satnav supplier if PGPSW disappeared? I think not, because the PGPSW database has worth to me. And anyway it allows me to contribute to society.

So if PGPSW is to remain (I am assuming your lifestyles are considerable less rosy that merchant bankers) then we must expect to pay for it. According to the government "we're all in this together", and for once in this case they are correct.

Those high mileage road runners ( I used to be one) will obviously have the best chance of reporting new cameras. And the verifiers should be thanked for going out of their way - in every meaning of the phrase.

All this depends to some extent on how your membership system can cope with changes, however let me make some suggestions which can then be debated/shot down in flames?

SUGGESTED FEE SYSTEM
Membership is a fixed fee for twelve months for all members (and make it round pounds please).

Offer a free extension (say four months, but could be more) for successful reporting a validated camera.

I think you should give the verifiers some sort of extension of membership reward too. And if they manage to verify enough to keep them in free membership then all well and good.

Show each member the number of cameras they have reported against their account details. At least it shows what each of us has contributed to the total. If not just for the greater glory then perhaps when this reaches some value they might earn an extension to their membership. [I declare that I have reported several mobile police local speed enforcement cameras without ever having 'won' a free membership, and if I am honest did not expect to win - when they are there for perhaps three hours every four months how could they ever be verified.]

In any transition there will be some 'losers' and no doubt some moaners and groaners - it is Britain after all - but if PGPSW disappears then we all receive nothing for free; and who is the beneficiary then? Give existing 'free' members an arbitrary date before charging; say 1 April 2103 for the humour if nothing else. If these people only do it for free membership then let them take their ethos elsewhere and pay or not as they see fit.

NB: I have paid my membership using a credit card successfully every time. You could make this option more accessible on the site.
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Darren
Pocket GPS Staff
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Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40
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Location: Hampshire, UK

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Changing the terms moving forwards is one thing, retrospectively removing benefits is another.

Whilst it may well have been naiive to offer them in the first place, removing them once awarded is not something we would countenance.

I think the key here is balance. A reward for reporting is entirely justified and reasonable. But a Life Membership has proved to be a millstone around our necks and it was short sighted I admit.

I agree that a year's subscription is a fair reward and it could be earned ad-infinitum if a member continued to actively report.
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nimpy
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Joined: Mar 13, 2006
Posts: 26
Location: Bournemouth, Dorset.

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:08 am    Post subject: Lifetime Subscriptions Reply with quote

The service that is being supplied to us for 19.99 is indeed a Bargain. The amount of work that goes into ensuring that we have Sat Nav information at our finger tips is indeed a very valuable commodity, let's do away with the Lifetime Subscription all together and still go on reporting the camera's because after all, we Sat Nav owners value our Sat Navs and they are not so effective without these sightings. Smile Nimpy.
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snifflebag
Lifetime Member


Joined: Jan 21, 2007
Posts: 2

PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2012 11:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have benefitted from a lifetime membership for a while and certainly value it, if just from the assurance of knowing it was there.

I am currently doing far fewer miles than I used to, but try and post sightings as and when, something that is no effort for me using the smartphone app.

I personally would pay for the service, it is far better quality than other services I've used and less expensive, but it is important that the quality is maintained. Providing incentives to keep the data refreshed is a necessary evil - just look at how rubbish other companies' data is when they rely on user submissions without any incentives... A lack of incentives, in my view, may create the risk that the database would be reliant on a diminishing number of community minded contributors.

I'd be happy with a limited free period for a successful submission, but don't make it so complicated that the web site team collapse under the weight of processing it!
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