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Joined: Nov 07, 2004 Posts: 98 Location: UK or USA from time to time.
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 9:14 am Post subject: Re: Speed Camera Database to Turn Professional
MikeB wrote:
We truly hope that the PocketGPSWorld.com community will not only carry on supporting us by sending in new cameras, but also encourage us as we go through our transition from hobby to professional!
This all is pretty naive stuff. The entire project is merely one to help people offend against the speeding laws with impunity, and now you are looking for honour amongst those crooks.
I predict that that you will get what you deserve but no more.
So Mr Barrett is giving up his Job to go full time, reading his credentials i'd say he would be on a fair wedge. couple this with the amount of downloads of the database i'd say no wonder he is giving up his job.
All the Bandwidth and all the time given cannot justify a charge of £2 per download.
A 10p charge would cover that assuming everybody keeps useing it.
I tend to agree it will be goodbye to a terrific thing as other opportunists see a chance to take over what is essentially a user contribution.
So what now? do the contributors start charging Pocketgps world for their time driving around useing their fuel and time?.
Basically all it needs is someone else to take on the work of collating and presenting, which i dont feel will be to far away.
The database is certainly what brings (and more importantly, keeps bringing) a huge number of people to the site
The database does contribute to the traffic, but it is less than 10%.
So the bandwidth excuse is just that then, an excuse. What you really want is for the camera database to support the site....... _________________ Regards
The discussion about per download or yearly monthly weekly can go on forever. Whatever you decide it can also be costly to administer. I would like to propose another option which I think is more in keeping with the values of people using the site. Make it voluntary.
Members can pay whatever they like, whenever they like. If you have just been saved from a massive speeding fine I'd have no problem donating £10-£20 even if I didn't download an update. Others might like to pay per download. The point is that everyone can choose to do what they wish. If we are not giving enough as a community just tell us. If we still don't give enough then put in a formal charging system.
You will need to make some changes to the site to explain the charging method and to make it very easy to give.
zaa
To see a cracking example of a large and wordlwide site with a HUGE database that operates on a purely voluntary contribution basis, visit http://www.bookcrossing.com. There is NO advertising. Users fund the site by voluntary donations or by making purchases of book associated goods from the online store. _________________ - - - - - - - - -
TomTom XL Europe
Apple iPhone 3GS
Ditch the idea of charging for the database and keep the loyal following or start charging and watch the haemorrage of users begin. I expect that comparitavely a few users will stay and use the site but i also expect that a majority of users will STOP submitting camera leaving admin a larger and impractical task (not to mention more expensive due to amount of petrol / diesel used) of travelling the roads of the UK.
I'll make a prediction. The posters on here who disagree with charging probably represent a significant number of the total population of "no's". TomTom will sell zillions of units over christmas from which a fair proportion of users will find their way to this site. They will weigh up the costs of the various ways of getting camera information into their machines and will go for the lowest cost solution - probably PGPSW. A significant number of newcomers will be enthusiastic enough to send in the camera positions - their persepective will be that they are helping to keep the service inexpensive - they won't have the historical baggage that it was once free. A fair number of people who feel aggrieved will leave this place. A few people will attempt to continue with a free database but will give up after a few months when they find out how much work it is. A few people will drift back when they find the other even more commercial services more expensive and no more accurate. The most accurate analogy on here is the boat club one. Sometimes things grow to the point that it is either pay up or give up. I 100% support the admins on their quest for commercial reality.
The ONLY reason i joined up was the free database, today it saved me from a gatso *flash flash* and was going to donate a resonable sum to the cause using the doante button, however my attention was brought to this thread and now i am in 2 minds whether to donate or not.
I joined the forum for the same reason, last thursday. Downloaded the scamera positions and used it over the weekend. I liked it so much, that I donated on monday morning, about 10 mins before this announcement!
Obviously, I haven't been on this forum long enough to see all the "this database will always remain free" comments, which I'm sure is what is causing all the consternation.
Personally, I think that the proposed small fee isn't unreasonable, however:
If the majority of the data is user submitted, then I do believe it's a mistake to charge for it (at least for those people who submit data).
I think this issue will just be subject to "market forces"...
If the database here is charged for, but enough people think that's not fair, there's nothing to stop *anyone* setting up another site that offers a free database. Sounds like there would be a lot of contributors, perhaps. If a free database was as good, I wonder how much traffic from this site would go there? It's traffic that drives advertising revenue...
I also wonder if the advertisers could be aked to pay more? Even a commission on sales through the site (click throughs resulting in sales).
What's the business model for charging, anyway? Just how many *paying* downloads are expected to fund this full time employee + all the other costs. Sounds a bit risky to me. Not shure I'd want MY salary to depend on it.
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 29 Location: Republic of Yorkshire
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:36 am Post subject:
yes Drewzel i know the very camera you are talking about
I have webspace, i have php and mysql databases available, i would offer my bandwidth as a mirror for free if it would help keep the database free, but reading back, you claim that bandwidth is not now your primary overhead?
Im sure each 'mirror' would be willing to also split out the different satnav formats, so that each person would only have to download their respective format. saving our bandwidth, and the downloaders bandwidth.
Like someone said earlier, get a poll setup, so that you can get a better idea of peoples REAL opinions, now that they know the full story of the possible £2 charge.
A couple of basic questions that would soon put an end to all doubts which way you could go:
POLL1
Would you be willing in principle to pay for the saftey camera database from PGPSW? YES / NO
POLL2
If charging was applied would you continue to contribute updates to PGPSW? YES / NO
If after the polls you have enough YES's to cover your costs, there is your answer. If you have a large % of NO's, then that tells you how it will be im afraid.
.............. A significant number of newcomers will be enthusiastic enough to send in the camera positions - their persepective will be that they are helping to keep the service inexpensive - they won't have the historical baggage that it was once free. A fair number of people who feel aggrieved will leave this place. A few people will attempt to continue with a free database but will give up after a few months when they find out how much work it is. A few people will drift back when they find the other even more commercial services more expensive and no more accurate. .............. I 100% support the admins on their quest for commercial reality.
I guess that the site has to break even both in financial terms and in terms of the time spent on it by the admins. If they cannot explore other ways of funding (why not by some kind of store selling clothing, caps, etc) then I would still download but far less regularly.
Any consideration to placing a screen between selecting the download and actually downloading rquesting that a voluntary donation of £1 is made to help cover admin costs? Many people may then remember to make the donations that they intended to do but forgot to do later. _________________ - - - - - - - - -
TomTom XL Europe
Apple iPhone 3GS
Joined: 19/08/2002 15:39:36 Posts: 172 Location: United Kingdom
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:42 am Post subject:
I would note that the camera location data that I provided (free of charge) in the early part of this project is automatically covered by copyright and I expressly refuse its use on any commercial pay per download basis without my express permission and adequate compensation.
If there are costs to be recovered then may I suggest perhaps contacting other GPS commercial business websites to see if they would be prepared to pay you to allow them to host the FREE download for which they would benefit from greatly increased specialised website traffic.
Joined: Nov 01, 2005 Posts: 29 Location: Republic of Yorkshire
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 10:52 am Post subject:
its a fair point by TheBoyGroucho. If all the contributors now claim ownership of the data they provided, how much is that going to cost you??
I think the voluntary payment splash screen is the most sensible one to date. It would recover your minimal costs, as i would be happy to donate (if not forced to), and would also keep your contributors happy. win/win situation?
2 - Copyright - I seem to remember seeing a TV program about Ordnance Survey/A-Z Maps where they have phantom entries to proove that where someone is using their information, they can rely on these entries to proove ownership. Does this mean that subscribers will get the odd site now and then?
3 - Ownership of information - By acquiring the location of camera sites through voluntary submissions, the value you add to this process is by collating the information together and distributing it. I find it difficult to understand how people can object to one charge or another for this. However, it is imperative that you have a process in place that ensures that the information is verified and validated before its inclusion/deletion to/from the database. This also requires you to verify the validity of the original data - good luck on this!!
S
You make a couple of good points. The practice of putting dummy information into books and files to detect the infringement of copyright is common and has been going on for decades. However, if someone decides to take the current free database and set up a competing update service (even using POICapture) I do not think the owners of this site would have the remotest chance of winning a copyright infringement case. The information is, to all intents and purposes, public domain and a representation of it in a CSV file would be very hard to copyright.
I think that the verification, or more specifically the legal requirement that the seller sells something that is fit for the intended purpose, is the real issue. By chargig, the company that owns the site will enter a contract with the buyer. The buyer has certain legal rights in that contract. No small print will take away the basic rights of the buyer. I doubt a one full-time person organisation can safely provide such verification.
Joined: Jun 13, 2005 Posts: 808 Location: The Deep South
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:21 am Post subject:
Sorry if this has been covered before but there are so many pages of posts to try and read. Do you charge for those companies who offer this pocketgpsworld camera database when you buy a TomTom product from them? I have bought a couple of products where the firm have offered a safety camera database as quite a significant part of their advertising and been given this database as the link to get the product. What happens with them then?
I wouldn't mind paying as TomTom charge quite a bit of money for the same thing.
Doug
Joined: Aug 31, 2005 Posts: 15142 Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
Posted: Tue Dec 20, 2005 11:22 am Post subject:
TheBoyGroucho wrote:
I would note that the camera location data that I provided (free of charge) in the early part of this project is automatically covered by copyright and I expressly refuse its use on any commercial pay per download basis without my express permission and adequate compensation.
it's a speed camera. it's inanimate, it won't move. how will you know if the co-ordinates provided were from person x or person y? surely they would be the same whoever submitted them?
i, for one, am all in favour of the charging system - ok, so maybe a £20 per year subscription should be considered. nothing is free - simple as that!
the guys put in 70+ hours per week on this site for very little. come on, admit it - how many times have you clicked on an advert and actually bought something leading to the site getting some cash? online ads have moved from being paid per show, to being paid per click to, in many cases now, being paid per purchase through the link.
£2 a month is very little, considering i usually update every 2 months that'd only cost me £12 per year. it's a miniscule amount in my opinion.
the analogy of people not submitting data because they've paid for the service doesn't hold true in my opinion. how many times have we emailed garmin, tom tom etc etc giving tips and ideas of how to improve their service/product? isn't it the same? for example, compare:
"dear garmin, i love your i3 andf it's very good value, however, i feel you should add the following function to the unit... this would improve your product greatly"
"dear pocketgpsworld - i love your service and it's very good value, however i think you should add the camera at the following co-ordinates... this would improve your service greatly"
I keep hearing from RobberyBrady about how much time all the Admin put in on maintaining the database. I for one dont refute his claims. What i do struggle with though, is his guarantee that these same people will personally check sites and add sites themselves ( i take this to mean they will drive all over the country logging cameras) yeah ok i know thats wishful thinking. Robberybrady, are these not the same people who have day jobs too? - your quote!, are they not also the same people who give up all their nights and weekends to attend to their hobby site?.
So where is the time coming from, to go logging sites and driving the routes. Perhaps we will have every camera that passes luncheon clubs or is on the route to the suppliers of GPS equipment.
In my years of business i have never been able to crack the elusive utopia- making money and then finding an application that makes my days 6 hours longer just so that i have enough time to spend it.
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We truly hope that the PocketGPSWorld.com community will not only carry on supporting us by sending in new cameras, but also encourage us as we go through our transition from hobby to professional!
yes Drewzel i know the very camera you are talking about 
