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Joined: Aug 25, 2004 Posts: 634 Location: Lincolnshire, England
Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 9:40 am Post subject: CALL FOR ALK TO SET UP A USER PANEL
I recently suggested on another thread that ALK would benefit from the establishment of a panel of users to be involved in the design of the next version of Copilot. I do not mean Beta testers, who merely comment on what is presented. Such a panel ought to include truck drivers, delivery operatives, emergency services providers and other professional users, as well as leisure drivers.
I made this suggestion because of the continuing failure of users' needs to be reflected in the design of Copilot features. This is despite the fact that the existing product has some potentially superb features, and that it must have been outstanding in its day, before it became outdated.
I thought this was worth placing in a dedicated thread, as it might be overlooked under other headings.
I am sure that there would be no shortage of potential panel members. All that is needed at ALK is for someone with the commitment, skills and authority to set the ball rolling. _________________ Dell Axims X50v & X30 (both WM 2003 2nd Edition). Copilot BTGPS3 and Fortuna Clip-on BT receivers. Jabra BT 250 audio headsets. Welltech 40032/AF32 BT handsfree audio. Copilot 6.0.4.110. TomTom Navigator 5.21. MS Autoroute/Pocket Streets 2005
Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40 Posts: 23848 Location: Hampshire, UK
Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 11:37 am Post subject:
Not just ALK, all the manufacturers could benefit from such panels. Witness the issues with the new GO's mount for example, these could have been resolved at an early stage. _________________ Darren Griffin
Joined: Mar 11, 2004 Posts: 1199 Location: Park Gate
Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 1:27 pm Post subject:
This seems to be the general trend by a lot of manufactures you only get what they want, rather than the customer as is evident from the past upgrades of both TomTom and CoPilot. Features left out, new ones implemented without proper testing etc. the list is endless.
The general trend seems to be to add as many fancy add-ons to attract new customers without getting the core program stable and working correctly. _________________ Graham.
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Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 2:16 pm Post subject:
Great idea from the consumer's point of view, but there is no way ALK (or any sat nav manufacturer) are going to open a public forum where people can say what they want and have their grievences resolved in public. What they want is carefully controlled spin and PR on their website, not free and open discussion of the product. Divide and conquer. _________________ Gone fishing!
Great idea from the consumer's point of view, but there is no way ALK (or any sat nav manufacturer) are going to open a public forum where people can say what they want and have their grievences resolved in public. What they want is carefully controlled spin and PR on their website, not free and open discussion of the product. Divide and conquer.
I think you misunderstand - The user panel in this case would almost certainly be by invitation/application, and any resulting members of that panel subject to confidentiality agreements, just like Beta testers are at the moment. It would not be a general discussion forum.
Joined: May 09, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Reading, UK
Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 3:09 pm Post subject:
A great idea in principle, but I suspect that ALK already talk to fleet managers, since that seems to be where they see their niche.
The biggest problem as I see it is in how to choose the participants. They would need a small number of users to be able to control it (and any confidentiality aspects), while requiring a large number of users to vote on whether anybody really needs what is being suggested. From a software development viewpoint, I know how much time and effort can be wasted on developing from just one user's view of the requirements, when that view would not have been supported by the majority of other users.
I do think that there should be a recognised way for anybody to input ideas into future versions, but I doubt that ALK will want to open a discussion on it or, for commercial reasons, acknowledge whether they intend to follow those ideas up. _________________ Ian
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Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Fri May 19, 2006 11:54 pm Post subject:
neil01 wrote:
I think you misunderstand - The user panel in this case would almost certainly be by invitation/application, and any resulting members of that panel subject to confidentiality agreements, just like Beta testers are at the moment. It would not be a general discussion forum.
Ah, OK maybe I did misunderstand. I wrote that after, ahem, a long lunch break.
As you say, ALK already have a select group of beta testers bound under a non disclosure agreement. How would this proposed user panel differ from the existing beta test program? _________________ Gone fishing!
Joined: May 09, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Reading, UK
Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 10:23 am Post subject:
[quote="Skippy"]
neil01 wrote:
As you say, ALK already have a select group of beta testers bound under a non disclosure agreement. How would this proposed user panel differ from the existing beta test program?
I doubt that it would differ. Beta testers would already have the ability to provide input into the next version, which may or may not be listened to.
I think that this discussion comes down to those who want to provide input, but haven't been selected to contribute. Given that ALK have to invite you to join, either as a beta tester or as a member of this suggested group, this will always be a problem. Maybe those with strong views should request membership of the beta testing group; although I think that strongly-voiced views would automatically exclude them.
Since ALK, or any other commercial company, are unlikely to open up their future products to group design, I think that a formal method for inputting design requests is all that we can expect. It is probably unfortunate that CoPilot's main user forum seems to be on a third-party site, rather than on ALK's own site, where their monitoring might be more evident.
I also think that using beta testers to provide input is more effective than discussing products in theory, since there is a some opportunity to try new ideas and refine them in practice. However, any significant user input is unlikely to have any effect until at least the next version comes out. As I stated before, significant enhancements may require more substantial hardware that would restrict the ability of people to upgrade. Route planning is very processor intensive, and PDAs and mobile 'phones are not supercomputers. _________________ Ian
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As you say, ALK already have a select group of beta testers bound under a non disclosure agreement. How would this proposed user panel differ from the existing beta test program?
It might be an idea to preview your posts first - something has gone wrong here - you have presumably inadvertadly, but, never the less incorrectly, attributed Skippy's words to me.
I think that the idea that Beta testers can perform the function of a User Panel shows a lack of knowledge about good system design.
A beta tester will provide invaluable feedback about what is wrong with a product, not just with bits which don't work (the primary function of a beta tester) but also about illogical, unnecessary, and missing functions (the secondary function of a beta tester). But since the code has already been written, any changes are expensive to make.
A user panel performs a completely different function, coming up with ideas on how something should be done, and what is needed, but the emphasis should be on future, not current products (either on sale or in development). Taking CoPilot as an example, and assuming that v7 is well underway, a user panel's ideas today, would be intended for v8, or even later versions. Since the panel is only influencing direction, these ideas can be incorporated from the beginning, so they incur little or even no additional cost for the product. Ideally, a better product will result at a reduced cost.
This is not to say that a business decision will not be made (based upon cost/benefit) for some of the ideas to be incorporated into the version currently in development, or even as a patch to a retail version.
A user panel is also given direction. For example they may look at routing one time, map display another, and user input at a later time. But you will have several people coming up with, and developing ideas on what they really need, or would like to see. It is these ideas (not solutions) which the systems analysts should take away, and use to come up with the product. The results of which, should in turn be presented to the user panel for feedback - all before any code is written (the expensive bit).
A user panel, being composed of people from different backgrounds with different (and sometimes conflicting) requirements are an invaluable resource for the analysts who will have a much narrower experience. The panel or panels should also cover different geographical locations, since what is appropriate for one country, may be inappropriate for another.
A user panel coming up with ideas on how something should be done, will invariably result in better solutions than those coming out of how to ‘fix’ existing shortcomings.
An example I would use to demonstrate this being the new ‘preview route’ function. We now have (almost) what is needed, but it is split between the new ‘preview route’, the ‘get directions’ in ‘Plan Trip’, and the ‘itinerary’ view from the main menu. Common sense would dictate that all this should be removed and replaced with a single function (although perhaps accessed from multiple locations) providing all the functionality in one place.
Joined: May 09, 2005 Posts: 283 Location: Reading, UK
Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 3:08 pm Post subject:
neil01 wrote:
I think that the idea that Beta testers can perform the function of a User Panel shows a lack of knowledge about good system design.
You seem to be confusing the phases of User Requirements and System Design. Good system design can only occur when products are rewritten. Due to the economics and timescales of software development, products such as CoPilot will evolve. Therefore, any development is subject to compromise; whereby ALK will make the design decisions based upon cost, timescale and performance considerations. A user group is all about requirements, not design.
While I consider the presence of a well-administered user panel to be an advantage, I have been present at hundreds of user group meetings over the years where nobody can agree on what they want, and a lot can't recognise what they actually need. I've also been to a lot of good one's, but they tend to be small, and are driven by experienced consultants.
I've seen a lot of different ideas on this group. From my viewpoint, some are good and some are stupidly unnecessary. But then that was my viewpoint, and I would expect other users to have their own (and different) ones. I would also expect some to be practical to add to the product, and some are likely to be impossible.
I've also seen posts that say 'make this a user option to switch on or off'. Apart from the increased size and complexity of the product when this occurs, expert systems are incredibly hard to configure, unless you are an expert.
As far as the position of Beta Testers as an aid to future development, I was suggesting that those who might contribute to a user panel should become beta testers, since better knowledge of the product might aid in their ability to contribute to product changes, and not just to a complete redesign. At least they would have a more advanced knowledge of the product. _________________ Ian
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Joined: Aug 25, 2004 Posts: 634 Location: Lincolnshire, England
Posted: Sat May 20, 2006 9:08 pm Post subject:
iankb writes:
Quote:
... products such as CoPilot will evolve...
That's the theory, but where is the evidence in practice? A step change is necessary, and it may or may not be achievable through modifications to the existing product. Either way, I ask again, where is the evidence that there is the commitment to effecting the step change? _________________ Dell Axims X50v & X30 (both WM 2003 2nd Edition). Copilot BTGPS3 and Fortuna Clip-on BT receivers. Jabra BT 250 audio headsets. Welltech 40032/AF32 BT handsfree audio. Copilot 6.0.4.110. TomTom Navigator 5.21. MS Autoroute/Pocket Streets 2005
I think that the idea that Beta testers can perform the function of a User Panel shows a lack of knowledge about good system design.
You seem to be confusing the phases of User Requirements and System Design...
I was not confusing the phases of system development. Yes I wasn't using the terminology, but I was not writing for an audiance composed of system design professionals.
The reason that I believe using Beta Testers will not result in good system design, is that their involvement is far too late in the product cycle, so if any changes made as a result of their input, this will involve changes which should have been incorporated before the code is written. Any changes made at this stage which do not involve a complete re-design, invariably involve significant compromises - hence my assertion that good system design will not result.
I also believe that it is bad practice to involve beta testers working on the current project, in a panel discussing a future product - all that results is frustration if the ideas are not included in the product they are working on, and this frustration doesn't create an environment condusive to either the best ideas, or to testing.
When I was talking about a user panel, I was not expecting them designing the product (a camel comes to mind!) I am talking about them coming up with ideas, and what they want, or at least they think they want. I even stated 'It is these ideas (not solutions) which the systems analysts should take away, and use to come up with the product'; meaning that the group of users from different backgrounds will bring a depth of knowledge, and insight which would not normaly be present in the software company.
If a user panel is correctly constituted, and any findings correctly used, the beta testers should only be coming up with a few design problems, the majority of their finding should be simple errors.
As for your statement that good system design needs the product to be re-written, my own experience suggests that this is not always the case - it all depends upon what state the products core is in. If it is basically sound, there is no reason why only sections of it should require a re-design. If the system is modular, it may only need deficient module re-designing.
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