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Tatsfield Occasional Visitor
Joined: Jan 17, 2006 Posts: 51 Location: Poole
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 2:34 pm Post subject: Protocols for the display of speed camera information |
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I live in what is probably the most densely speed camera populated area in the country, Bournemouth and Poole. Since a great many cameras are right on my doorstep I intend to check the display situation to ensure that it is perfect for others visiting this beautiful part of the country. I have the POI capture program and can correct any minor details. I have already noticed that some cameras are shown on the wrong side of the road or up to 100 metres out of position. As a local this does not worry me as a warning of a camera about which I already know is good enough but as a perfectionist I would like to make the correction to make my contribution to the Pocket GPS World community.
However, I now realise that I don't know as much about cameras as I thought I did. So here are some questions which I need answering before I enter information into the POI Capture program.
1. When a camera is on one side of the road should it appear to that side of the road on the map or should it appear in the middle of the road or would that signify two way working ?
2. When the local council puts calibration markings parallel on both sides of the road does it mean that the camera can register targets both approaching and receding from it? If so is that a two way camera? Or are the markings just bluff to increase the "respect" factor? If it is really a two way camera, how should it be displayed as an icon? Where they put the markings on both sides of the road on either side of the camera is that really indicative of a reversable unit and how should that be displayed?
3. If a camera is situated in a central reservation and has a reversible mounting, should it be displayed in the middle of the road and does so doing indicate that it is reversible or should it be indicated twice, once on each side of the road?
So I need to understand what the cameras are and how they should be displayed. Is there an information source I can visit for these facts?
Currently there is a lack of consistency with cameras in the same road but I am loath to offer a correction unless I can fully understand the actual camera capabilities and the display protocols for the icons on the map.
Sorry to be long-winded but once I have the knowledge I can get on with the work. Can anyone advise me? |
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lbendlin Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: 02/11/2002 22:41:59 Posts: 11878 Location: Massachusetts, USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 3:19 pm Post subject: |
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1. It should appear on that side of the road according to the Teleatlas maps. This may not always coincide with the physical location.
2. That would be a "reversible" camera.
3. select the direction as reversible, we will then place it in the middle. _________________ Lutz
Report Map Errors here:
TomTom/TeleAtlas NAVTEQ |
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Tatsfield Occasional Visitor
Joined: Jan 17, 2006 Posts: 51 Location: Poole
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:07 pm Post subject: |
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As far as 1. is concerned, are you saying that these maps are the governing factor in which side of the road the camera is displayed and if so, how am I to know when they've got it right or wrong and should I correct them? I thought I was beginning to understand the icon display protocols but now I'm not so sure. Should I always correct a camera for being shown on the wrong side of the road?
I am not sure what you mean for 2. as my question was perhaps over complicated. When the calibration marks are on either side of the camera I assume you are saying that it is reversable. But are Gatso cameras capable of recording targets travelling in both directions without physically turning the camera? Are the two sets of calibration marks side by side on both sides of the road solid evidence for this? Are the calibration marks proof of anything? Is the capability of the camera site known and recorded somewhere and is this accessible by me?
OK. I understand 3. |
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Andy_P Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:19 pm Post subject: |
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I'm very confused by your answers, lbendlin.
I thought it had been agreed by the PGPSW that in order for all the various "Warn only when on route" systems to work correctly...
1) The cameras would be placed in the centre of the carriageway (ie in the middle of the road for single carriageway roads and in the middle of the particular carriageway for dual carriageways), for a simple camera position, and...
2) For the specific example of a reversible camera in the central reservation, that would be put in the database as TWO cameras, one in the middle of each carriageway (in fact, that is already being done). |
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Andy_P Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 4:40 pm Post subject: |
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Oh, and to further your point 2, Tatsfield, if there are road markings in both directions, the camera has to be physically turned round, unless it is one of the (quite rare) "double-headed" Gatsos, which are easy to spot. Details HERE |
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lbendlin Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: 02/11/2002 22:41:59 Posts: 11878 Location: Massachusetts, USA
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 5:00 pm Post subject: |
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OK guys, everyone should know their limits. I'll leave it up to the UK folks to clear up the mess I left behind 8O _________________ Lutz
Report Map Errors here:
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Tatsfield Occasional Visitor
Joined: Jan 17, 2006 Posts: 51 Location: Poole
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 6:03 pm Post subject: |
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Andy: I understand the reversible system. I don't understand why the council put down calibration markings on both sides of the road. The cameras are not on reversible mountings Do Gatso's acquire targets travelling both towards and away from them with the same lens? If so how is the icon to be positioned.
Lutz: Sorry if the complexity of my query has caused confusion. It sure as hell confuses me!
I don't feel that I can just give up, so is thereanyoner who can advise me where I can access icon positioning protocols and is there anywhere where I can learn about Gatso camera capabilities? |
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Privateer Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: 30/12/2002 17:36:20 Posts: 4912 Location: Oxfordshire, England, UK
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 7:41 pm Post subject: Re: Protocols for the display of speed camera information |
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Hi Tatsfield,
Tatsfield wrote: | I live in what is probably the most densely speed camera populated area in the country, Bournemouth and Poole. |
You’re right, there are a lot of the blighters in your area! 8O
Whilst using POI Capture, I find that it’s best to use 2D display.
Tatsfield wrote: | 1. When a camera is on one side of the road should it appear to that side of the road on the map or should it appear in the middle of the road or would that signify two way working? |
On a dual carriageway, the cameras should appear on the correct side of the central reservation. On a two-way single carriageway road, the POI will probably be placed in or near the centre of the road making it difficult to determine the side of the road the camera is working.
Tatsfield wrote: | 2. When the local council puts calibration markings parallel on both sides of the road does it mean that the camera can register targets both approaching and receding from it? If so is that a two way camera? Or are the markings just bluff to increase the "respect" factor? If it is really a two way camera, how should it be displayed as an icon? Where they put the markings on both sides of the road on either side of the camera is that really indicative of a reversable unit and how should that be displayed? |
Ignore the calibration markings as some authorities place them on both sides to aid confusion.
Tatsfield wrote: | 3. If a camera is situated in a central reservation and has a reversible mounting, should it be displayed in the middle of the road and does so doing indicate that it is reversible or should it be indicated twice, once on each side of the road? |
Bournemouth has lot of these, personally I’d place two one-way cameras in each side of the road so that people who use “warn on route” will still get a warning.
Tatsfield wrote: | So I need to understand what the cameras are and how they should be displayed. Is there an information source I can visit for these facts? |
The best online source, is Steve Warren’s UK SpeedTrap guide.
Regards, _________________ Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D |
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tanda Lifetime Member
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 617 Location: Gloucester UK
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 10:40 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Everyone, as I understood it, if a camera is positioned in the middle of the road, with markings on both sides of the carrageway, the camera will only catch you if you are going AWAY from it, not TOWARDS it. the reason being, if you are going down a road, late at night, you don't want a bright light flashed twice in your face, causing tempary blindnes, so the camera is set/adjusted, to catch you as you are going away from it. _________________ Audi A3 Sline sat nav |
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Andy_P Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jun 04, 2005 Posts: 19991 Location: West and Southwest London
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Posted: Tue Jan 24, 2006 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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From the UK SpeedtrapGuide:
Quote: | The Gatso camera only has type approval to take images of the back of a vehicle as it passes. It can take images of a vehicle moving towards it but in 99% of cases they can not use the images. |
Tatsfield wrote: | The cameras are not on reversible mountings |
Some are! There's a camera near me that they turn around every month or so. |
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Tatsfield Occasional Visitor
Joined: Jan 17, 2006 Posts: 51 Location: Poole
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 2:57 pm Post subject: |
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OK, so now I have a plan of campaign. To use the capture program this is what I intend to do:
1. Pull up alongside camera so that GPS can position it accurately.
2. Enter camera speed classification into program
3. Report the camera road position relative to my parked position.
4. Only note camera as reversible if it is on reversible mountings in the centre reservation of a dual carriageway or if it is on reversible mountings on the left side of a single carriageway road but targetting traffic on the other side of the road. Otherwise ignore reversible mountings and calibration road markings.
I will assume that if I correct a position but my classification report contradicts the existing data, the position may be changed but the classifications will not be altered until clarified.
Unless anyone tells me that there are flaws in this working system, I will start work from today. |
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peterc10 Frequent Visitor
Joined: Aug 21, 2005 Posts: 1761 Location: Kent, England
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: |
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Is the direction actually of any use to most of us? I was under the impression that most programmes (including Tom Tom) can't differentiate anyway and can't link the direction of your route with the direction that the camera is pointing in. If its on your route you will get a warning regardless. Or is that no longer correct?? |
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lbendlin Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: 02/11/2002 22:41:59 Posts: 11878 Location: Massachusetts, USA
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 3:59 pm Post subject: |
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TomTom may not know the difference. But if you use external programs they may be able to use that information and filter out the cameras that are not on your course. _________________ Lutz
Report Map Errors here:
TomTom/TeleAtlas NAVTEQ |
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Privateer Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: 30/12/2002 17:36:20 Posts: 4912 Location: Oxfordshire, England, UK
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:04 pm Post subject: |
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Hi Tatsfield,
Tatsfield wrote: | 1. Pull up alongside camera so that GPS can position it accurately.
2. Enter camera speed classification into program
3. Report the camera road position relative to my parked position.
4. Only note camera as reversible if it is on reversible mountings in the centre reservation of a dual carriageway or if it is on reversible mountings on the left side of a single carriageway road but targetting traffic on the other side of the road. Otherwise ignore reversible mountings and calibration road markings. |
Sounds good to me!
However, safety is paramount for you and all other road users! Please bear this in mind when you’re using POI Capture. In an ideal world it’s best to let your passenger operator POI Capture.
A lot of the cameras in the Bournemouth area are on dual carriageway, e.g. the A338 Wessex Way. You don’t want to pull up and stop alongside a camera on one of those roads. It is best to slow down to get a more accurate recording of the camera’s details, but don’t slow down to the point where you interfere with the flow of traffic.
Watch out too for the infamous double-headed cameras on the A338 Wessex Way (they are reversible but can only do one direction at a time).
Regards, _________________ Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D |
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neil01 Frequent Visitor
Joined: May 06, 2005 Posts: 902 Location: Leeds
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Posted: Wed Jan 25, 2006 4:12 pm Post subject: |
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Just to add what I have seen.
I agree, there are 'reversable' cameras, which are physically turned around from time to time. I am aware of several.
I have also seen cameras with lenses on BOTH sides of the box. Assuming that they are both operational (ie one is not a dummy camera), this really would be a bi-directional camera.
However, since the 'reversable' cameras can be (and are) turned around without any warning, I would have thought that they should be treated as bi-directional.
As to whether a camera is 'fixed' or 'reversable' I would have though that until it is absolutely certain that it can't be changed, it should be assumed that it can. |
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