A GPS beginner's "voyage" (choosing hardware)

[Graeme2812]

Hello All,
I'm looking to purchase a new PPC and compatible GPS Hardware.

The PPC choices are the Ipaq 2210 or the 4150. I think the choice here is purely down to personal preference, with the 4150 having the added advantage WI-FI, so that shouldn't be a problem.

The GPS receiver is where my uncertainty lies. I have narrowed my choices down to the Emtac Trine II BT receiver (Buying the additional software afterwords) and the TTN3 option.
I understand the battery life is better with the Emtac device, but it does not come with software, as the TTN3 package. I would require a reasonably accurate and reliable device as it will be used for walking up the hills, as well as using in the car. I read that the Emtac can track up to 12 satellites at a time, for better location plotting (accurate to within 3m apparently?), and it also comes with the data logger, which i also find advantageous.

How does the Emtac Trine II compare to the TTN3 BT device, is what I'm trying to establish i guess.

My two software choices would be TTN3, and MM
Would both devices be compatible with both TTN3 and MM running on the same PPC?

I'd be looking to install a 1GB Kingston CF card, has anyone had any bad or indeed good experiences with CF cards of this size etc?


Thanks in advance,

Graeme

P.S
This is a marvelous site, i visit almost ever day. Excellent for us beginners!

[gilbem1]

I have had the TT3 Palm bundle for a couple of weeks (mainly because that's the only way i could get the Palm TT3 software) which includes the TT3 BT receiver. I have used it for a couple of weeks for about 4/5 hours every day all over the country, as I travel a lot with my work.

I must say that every time I check the receiver whilct idling my time in a traffic jam, I seem to be locked onto at least 8 satellites....so far it hasn't missed a beat (damn I just know it'll fail tommorrow now !).

Having said that, if I could have got the Palm software separately, the Emtrac Trine II would have been my choice based on reviews here and elsewhere !

[DavidW]

I'm not in that good a position to comment on the differences between Bluetooth GPSes - except to throw a 'wild card' into things by saying if I was buying one now, I may well go for a Fortuna Clip On, because of its use of a standard Nokia battery and the ability to switch between standard SiRF (ST) and Xtrac (XT) modes.

I have no particular need for a data logger, and am unlikely to use the multi-link capability of the Trine - I do have a laptop with built in Bluetooth, but I am not likely to use it 'in car', not least because of the difficulty of mounting such an expensive, heavy and fragile object safely in car. The Trine has no Xtrac capability, and whilst it uses exchangeable batteries, I'm not sure that they're as readily available as those used in the Clip On. The Clip On is also some 65 pounds cheaper than the Trine at the supplier I just checked.


Don't get too hung up on the claimed performance of the different GPSes. As far as I can tell, the Trine, the TomTom Bluetooth GPS and the Clip On in ST mode all use the SiRFstar IIe/LP GPS chipset, which, give or take any slight differences from the different antennas used, are going to perform exactly the same.

SiRFstar IIe/LP is a 12 channel chipset. The highest accuracy figures quoted are given for SBAS assisted operation; the European EGNOS SBAS system looks like it's not going to be in operation until Easter 2005 at the earliest, which will make it a year late. Particularly for in-car navigation, SBAS isn't needed, and the accuracy even without SBAS is often far better than the quoted GPS specification.


I did want to pick up on your comments about the different PDAs. If you go for an iPAQ h4150, you don't have a CompactFlash slot; the only iPAQ with both Wi-Fi and a CompactFlash slot so far as I recall is the new hx4700 which is around 150 pounds more than thn the h4150.

One way around this is to use a CompactFlash Wi-Fi card with the h2210 and SD memory - or, indeed, an SDIO Wi-Fi card and CompactFlash memory.


I'm using SD memory as the main storage card in my hx4700 and leaving the CompactFlash slot open for other devices - especially my CompactFlash GPS. If you have a device with both type of slot, there's a greater range of add-ons available in the larger CompactFlash format, though SDIO is catching up, not least because so many devices just have one SD slot.


You need to think carefully about exactly what you need from your PDA. I have the hx4700 because I'm something of a power user (my previous machine was an iPAQ h3970, which was top of the range at the time and, incidentally, 150 pounds more in September 2002 than I paid for the hx4700 last week). The VGA resolution screen of the hx4700 is particularly valuable to me as I do a lot of textual work with my Pocket PC. I'll be even happier when Laridian update PocketBible to work in VGA mode, but I'm already very impressed with Pocket Informant and Pocket Internet Explorer in VGA mode.


The iPAQ h4150 and especially the h2210 are older models - but both are good.

The iPAQ h5150 can't be recommended (it was really only ever a niche product) and it's hard to recommend the iPAQ h5550 (some people have particular reasons to prefer it to the hx4700, but it's reportedly now out of production prior to being discontinued in favour of the hx4700).


That then leaves the expensive but excellent hx4700, the low end rz1710 and h1940, the mid range rx3715 and the Pocket PC Phone Edition h6340.

The hx2000 series aren't available yet in the UK - they may prove to be good choices in the future and may well bring about the demise of the h4150 (the hx2750 is superior in every way - faster processor, more memory, Pocket PC 2003SE operating system) and quite probably the venerable h2210 as well.


I've already mentioned the hx4700.

The h6340 is either your dream device or unwanted convergence. I prefer a separate Bluetooth phone, not least as my next phone will likely be 3G and the 6340 isn't a 3G device.

The rz1710 and the h1940 are both bottom end devices. I believe the rz1710 will probably supersede the h1940, though I believe the rz1710 is rather a poor machine with only 25MB of RAM available to the user.

The rx3715 is quite expensive, but has built in Wi-Fi and Bluetooth, also a built in 1.2 megapixel camera. It's not my thing - I don't have a camera phone; instead I carry a 'proper' digital camera with a zoom and flash. Of course, it will appeal to some. It's pitched, probably wisely considering the specification, as a mobile multimedia device. Unlike many of the latest iPAQs, it does have the Nevo universal remote control system - though I never liked nor used it on my h3970. It has no CompactFlash slot.


I think that's everything covered. The h2210 will continue to be a popular choice, as will the h4150 - both are fine machines even though they're now coming to the end of the road, and like all existing iPAQs, are not going to get a Pocket PC 2003SE upgrade. To be honest, there's not much that's new in Pocket PC 2003SE apart from the landscape support and the support for WPA. I believe HP have already added WPA support to Pocket PC 2003 on all iPAQs with built-in Wi-Fi.

The only feature that makes 2003SE mandatory is a VGA screen; there's no VGA support in the original 2003 OS - but as all VGA devices are 2003SE anyway, that's not an issue. The old VGA Toshiba got a free 2003SE upgrade which just has to be downloaded and installed.



David

[Graeme2812]

Thanks for the replies.

I did however forget to mention that my budget for hardware is no more than £350/£400.

Looking at WI-FI I can not see it being really that important, as I can still use the N6600's GPRS and bluetooth to retrieve mail and access the net etc via the PPC. The PPC will be PRIMARILY used for navigation, but should still have all the capabilities of MS Outlook (e-mail,contacts, calender, tasks etc.) as I'm sick of trying to do this on the Nokia's tiny screen! Word and Media player will of course be an advantage. I believe the H2210 can provide all of this.
The option of both SD and CF on the 2210 was the appealing factor over the 4150, so to was the reported battery life of the Trine over the Tom Tom BT device.

So my decisions were as good as made?...Not now!

You say the 2210 is nearing the end of it's road? I will be looking to buy around Jan, do you suggest holding back until there is a clearer indication of the release dates of the hx2*** models to the UK, allowing me to also consider these? Comparing the h2210 and hx2210,(On the HP UK Website) the hx model is reported as being slightly larger, slightly heavier, and having a smaller processor, (possibly a far superior chipset? ) with the only apparent advantages (to a newcomer :P ) being Microsoft Windows Mobile 2003 Second Edition,the QVGA screen, and the larger standard memory of 128Mb.

The Fortuna Clip-On is one device i did not consider, why? I really don't know. It's dual firmware mode and battery life is it's appealing factor for me, especially when out walking for longer durations of time. Thank you for bringing it up!

[DavidW]

The hx2000 series are going to be available in three 'flavours' - the best specified of which is a clear step up from the current h2210. I'm rather less convinced about the hx2210 - I suspect it will be a cheaper, lower performance machine.

Both the h2210 and the hx2000 series are QVGA - 240 by 320 screens have been the norm in Pocket PCs until now, but Windows Mobile for Pocket PC 2003SE supports different screen resolutions. I've only heard of 480 by 640 VGA devices being released - but I understand there's also support for 240 by 240 square.

It's very hard to guess what will happen until pricing is released. Just because a model is old doesn't automatically make it bad - indeed, it can mean that others have already found and reported any bugs, which have been fixed. Amongst the Pocket GPS Team and moderators, I believe there's several h2210s in use.


I almost certainly will be buying a Clip On in the next week or two - the other family member that's has my iPAQ h3970 on loan has decided that she wants it as a satellite navigation system, so she needs a copy of TomTom Navigator 3 and a GPS. She'd be better off with my CompactFlash Haicom HI-303MMF, so I'm intending to buy a Clip On to replace that GPS in my setup.



David

[Graeme2812]

You make a good point RE bug fixes in the older h2*** series.

I've checked out a few feedback comments on a few retailers sites, who say the Fortuna BT device is prone to locking up after a few weeks, and unable to receive any satellites? This of course could be down to user error, faulty devices etc, but has anyone had any problematic experiences with theres?

Just checking out a few on line retailers, and one is reporting the hx2410 (currently pre order) at £314.94 inc VAT (£268.03 exc VAT) and the hx2110 (again, pre order) at £256.77 inc VAT (£218.53 exc VAT).

This doesn't seem bad, as the same retailer is selling the h2210 for £217.99 inc VAT (£185.52 exc VAT), so only a £38 difference, for (what i believe to be) a newer, and higher performing device.
They are expecting delivery to be around Mid December.

The HP UK site is also reporting the hx2210 as available, and at £225.00 exc VAT.
(Apologies if I've just stated the obvious above. )

Graeme
(Staying RIGHT here in the beginners Lounge :D )

[DavidW]

This has been a good thread - one that I believe will offer others some helpful guidance. I may go back and edit the title to make it more reflective of the true contents. Are you in agreement with that - and have you any suggestions?


The Fortuna Clip On is a popular device, so there's more likely to be horror stories than for some less popular Bluetooth GPSes. It didn't seem to feature that much in this thread. Most of the reported failures there seem to be with the TomTom Bluetooth GPS, but you can read through the whole thing for yourself.

The Clip On uses a standard Nokia phone battery, so if the battery dies it should be easy to replace - or indeed, it's easy and cheap to carry a spare for particularly extended use. That's just another attractive feature in my eyes.


If you get a Clip On that fails in a matter of weeks, you can put considerable pressure on the retailer under the various consumer protection laws we now have. I can't remember the cut off, but for items under a certain age, I believe the retailer now has to prove that the item is not faulty in the first so many months, rather than you having to prove it is faulty.



David

[Graeme2812]

Please feel free to edit as required..."Diary of a GPS Beginners Voyage"

Thanks for that link, I would have come across it eventually

This is somewhat worrying for a first time buyer of a BT GPS system, when users are reporting devices failing within WEEKS of purchase, the flip side is that for most, the customer services/returns procedures appear to be sufficient and satisfactory.

I have to say my choice to opt for a BT device over a wired alternative is still favorable, despite some of the reports from that thread. Thankfully, very few seem to concern the Fortuna BT device.
I suspect if my BT device was to fail, I would more seriously consider opting for a wired alternative THEN.
In the cases of those that have had problems, it's all very circumstantial I guess. There reliability will greatly depend on there level of usage, and there usage environment, so this is something that concerns me, as I intend on using my BT device both outdoors and in the car, on a regular basis.

I have never been a big fan of bluetooth, it's (In my opinion) not very secure, unreliable, and at times difficult to use effectively.
That could of course just be me!

Many suspected a possible charing fault, could this having anything to do with devices possibly being imported from outside the UK, where our standard voltage of 230V/240V and 50Hz, differers from countries like USA on 120V 60Hz, and Japan 100V 50/60 Hz etc?
Could Manufacturers be getting around this by providing simple (possibly ineffective) step-down or step-up transformers within the plugs?
I may be way off the mark there.....

The Fortuna's choice of using a Nokia style battery was also an appeal to me. As many have already said, they are relatively cheep, and readily available. I wonder if the fact it uses this method of powering, has anything to do with why it's not mentioned in your link?

As I am looking to buy around the beginning of January, that should give me enough time to assess the response the new Ipaq hx2*** series receives, it should also give the prices time to settle.
As far as I'm aware, there are no new BT GPS receivers due to hit the market in the next month or so, therefore I am 90% decided on the Fortuna BT GPS (10% still with the Emtac Trine II)

[DavidW]

I hope you like the new title - I took your idea and changed it a little.


From what you say, Bluetooth sounds like the right choice for you - if you want the ability to use the setup away from the car, you can't beat it. It helps if you don't leave the GPS in your car to cook in the summer and freeze in the winter; that can't do it any good.


The problems with TomTom Bluetooth GPSes seem to be more to do with the device being left on charge for a long time, and the failures sometimes happen in car. I'm not sure exactly what is up - but the number of complaints seem to have subsided rather, so I wouldn't be surprised if the problem has been fixed in later hardware runs. Further, most people's experience of their retailer and/or TomTom if they do have a failed TomTom Bluetooth GPS has been good - but it's still hassle that people would rather do without.


Bluetooth certainly has its problems; I can't get the Belkin USB Bluetooth device on my workstation to work correctly with the Widcomm 1.4 software; every time I log on as my usual non-Administrator user it decided to reinstall many of the devices causing all sorts of problems after a while. I've dropped to using the Microsoft Windows XP SP2 Bluetooth software, which works better but unfortunately has no audio support.

My Dell laptop has Widcomm 3.0 software which works much better - but I can't install that version on my workstation! I gather Widcomm 4.0 software is becoming available - but most vendors seem to show no interest in shipping it <sigh>.

That said, my experience of Bluetooth is fairly positive overall. It's not trouble free, but it allows me to do a lot of things I'd otherwise struggle to do - especially as wires and wheelchairs don't mix too well. I've got a Bluetooth phone, Bluetooth headset, two Bluetooth Pocket PCs, a Bluetooth laptop, a Bluetooth workstation machine and probably, before long, a Bluetooth keyboard and mouse for use with PowerPoint and possibly the Pocket PC.

I'm almost certainly going to buy a Fortuna Clip On, too. I'll report back if it doesn't work out as I'd hoped.


As you say - holding fire a little will give chance for the rest of the new iPAQs to emerge and you can then see what is a good choice. There'll always be new Bluetooth GPSes coming out, but I think most possible variants have now been tried - I doubt we'll see anything truly novel, save that at some point SiRFstar III powered devices will become available.



David

[bhau]

A really excellent thread and a most informative dialogue.

I trust you will continue with this as it is a wonderful insight to the GPS and PDA world.

watching and reading ..
avidly
Bhau

[bloater]

To add something to my own journey:

I am currently looking at buying a complete GPS PDA based system, and had narrowed it down to the 2210 with TT3 or the Navigation pack. I have now almost disregarded the navigation pack, but have now also found the new HX2110, available soon, and the DELL X30, available now. The DELL appears to be the same machine as the HP, same processor and all that, and is available with BT and WI-FI, but also as a bog standard machine.

My dilemma now is. The X30 and TT3 now, or the 2110 and TT3, sometime in the New Year. I am travelling to Germany for xmas and New Year, so was hoping to have this all up and running prior to then.

Your thoughts???

Gary

[Graeme2812]

I have to totally agree with your point on bluetooths convenience factor David, simply bringing my current Nokia 6600 into range of the desktop PC, and after a few min auto synchronization begins and 95% of the time completes successfully.

I'm hoping to have the same fortune with whatever will eventually be my PPC.
As for the new models of PDA coming out, when I think about it, I'd never actually buy one if I wait in anticipation for whatevers on the horizon every time, and as you previously pointed out, new isn't always best over old.

Bhau,
If no one objects, I'll gladly update this thread on how my developments in choosing my Hardware go, right up into the first few weeks of usage?

What I will say is at this time is, I'm still very much at the assessing stage. As I hope you can all appreciate, as to with many other Beginners, I am almost completely new to the world of PPC and GPS, and there is such a wealth of hardware out there with so many retailers vying for my custom, I'd like some time to research how I will spend, what i consider to be a reasonable amount of money ( around £400) on something that I hope to last me several years. This I feel is of high importance to me.

I'm currently waiting the release of the Ipaq hx2*** models, expected mid December, and hope to be in a better position by the end of December to make my choice between the Older h2*** series and the newer hx2*** series.

As i said earlier, I can not see any significant developments in the BT GPS receiver market, therefore I am still researching my original choice of the Emtac Trine II, and the device David suggest looking at, the Fortuna Clip-on BTGPS, but no longer the TTN3 BT device.

[bhau]

Graeme

I am sure no one would object. After all this is a voyage of discovery.. and would be nice to know what the end result is.. and whether the voyage has been worth it.
Am sure newbies ( like me) would learn a lot from the input of the "knowledgeables"
Look forward to reading the ensuing chapters!
Regards
Bhau

[DavidW]

The perils of opting for a very new Pocket PC can be seen in this thread - it looks like there may be a problem with the Bluetooth stack on the Dell X30, though it's too early to say for sure.

I've found a few issues with the iPAQ hx4700 I'm using (mainly with third party software that doesn't work properly on the 2003 Second Edition operating system or on a VGA device) - but most things are straightened out now as the third party developers release updates of their software.


If considering new hardware, it's always worth keeping an eye on the forums for issues others may be having.



David

[Graeme2812]

Just a little update on my 'voyage'.....

I hope to have the new Ipaq hx2210 arrive tomorrow, (care of www.superetrader.co.uk / Initial City-Link) who have assured me it is the Full UK spec!

I wait with baited breath!

I almost had the opportunity to pick up the older 2210 model for £199 from PC World in the high street, but was unfortunate enough to be left with the only option of paying that full price for the battered old display model, which was the only one left. I assumed these were so cheep as they were simply trying to get rid of them for the arrival of the newer hx models.

I decided to go for the Fortuna Clip-On BT device (from www.globalpositioningsystems.co.uk / Royal Mail), only for them to drop the price of the device the day after I placed the order! :x
At the same time, I should hopefully take receipt of TTN3 from the same company.

Being a complete beginner to GPS/PDA's, I plan to spend the weekend (assuming the all arrive tomorrow) going through the manuals and forums before switching them on, (OK, perhaps just to charge )

I'll be sure to validate the warranty/spec of them all before I even do ANYTHING. Imports appears to be a real issue in some cases!

I WAS planning to download all the available updates and patches etc, ready to install but am now thinking that may not be such a good idea. Is it advisable to get everything running and working first, THEN look to patching/updating?

Thanks again to all who advised and provided help towards my making my decision on what to buy. Now the fun begins!

I will continue to update this thread as and when there are any developments.

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