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Darren
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Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40
Posts: 23848
Location: Hampshire, UK
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 Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:11 pm Post subject: |
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| miktdish wrote: | | Just one more question - how many subscribers do you have now ? |
That is commercially sensitive information. We don't disclose subscription figures for obvious reasons.
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Darren Griffin |
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MaFt
Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 15148
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 12:44 pm Post subject: |
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| miktdish wrote: | | MaFt wrote: | | for the uk as a very rough guide there are usually about 15-20 new static cameras added each month, about 5-10 temporary/specs (roadworks) added/removed each month and around 5-10 static cameras removed. |
That's quite a monthly increase. The bike press (well MCN at least) is full of the decrease in mobile usage, quoting some SCP's down by several hundreds of hours per month. South Yorks mobiles spent 110 hours less in June 2007 than they did in June 2006. I have spotted the difference too.
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they may be doing less hours there but the number of sites where they do their work still continues to grow... we have locations of sites that have been used as opposed to locations of sites where they are right this very second!
| miktdish wrote: |
In Edinburgh, just as you approach the airport, a van used to sit regularly on the left by a footbridge. I haven't seen it for at least 7 months. There used to be a police man hiding in the bushes on the A7 too but he's not been there for a while either. |
report it with this info via the submission page 
MaFt |
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miktdish
Occasional Visitor
Joined: Jun 23, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Cartland, Scotland.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject: |
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| MaFt wrote: | | they may be doing less hours there but the number of sites where they do their work still continues to grow... we have locations of sites that have been used as opposed to locations of sites where they are right this very second! MaFt |
A lot of empty layby's, raised 'police only' areas on the sides of bypass's and motorways and bridges over main roads then ;o)
If they think about this all the Police/SCP's need to do is put a van round every bend and on every bridge and within a month or two we will all be creeping around seeing red banners and going "boing boing" on every bit of road.
Or do you remove locations where a van isn't seen for a while (like my A8, Edinburgh example) ? |
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miktdish
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Joined: Jun 23, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Cartland, Scotland.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:34 pm Post subject: |
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| Darren wrote: | | miktdish wrote: | | Just one more question - how many subscribers do you have now ? |
That is commercially sensitive information. We don't disclose subscription figures for obvious reasons. |
Well OK then Darren as long as your not getting paranoid ....
Obvious reasons ... ?
You don't want us/the tax man to know how much money you make ?
Including the staff it's less than 10 ?
Including the staff you ran out of fingers and cant count past 39 ?
Big numbers give you headaches ?
If the rest of the staff find out they might want paying ?
;o) |
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Darren
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Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40
Posts: 23848
Location: Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject: |
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| miktdish wrote: | Well OK then Darren as long as your not getting paranoid ....
Obvious reasons ... ?
You don't want us/the tax man to know how much money you make ?
Including the staff it's less than 10 ?
Including the staff you ran out of fingers and cant count past 39 ?
Big numbers give you headaches ?
If the rest of the staff find out they might want paying ?
;o) |
Yup all of them. It really is that easy to pull the wool over the Tax Mans' eyes and Paypal don't keep records obviously!
I tell you what, why not ask TomTom how many subscribers they have or Garmin, or RoadAngel or anyone else offering a safety camera database and then post back the answer her.
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Darren Griffin |
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MaFt
Pocket GPS Staff
Joined: Aug 31, 2005
Posts: 15148
Location: Bradford, West Yorkshire
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: |
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| miktdish wrote: |
A lot of empty layby's, raised 'police only' areas on the sides of bypass's and motorways and bridges over main roads then ;o) |
remember though, if you travel the route regularly do you also travel it at regular times? i.e. they may still use that site but not at the time when you regularly pass it. we get loads of removal requests saying 'i pass here twice a day going to and from work and ive never seen a camera here'
they get rejected! why? because what SCP is going to put a van out in rush hour when it's impossible to speed?!
| miktdish wrote: |
If they think about this all the Police/SCP's need to do is put a van round every bend and on every bridge and within a month or two we will all be creeping around seeing red banners and going "boing boing" on every bit of road.
Or do you remove locations where a van isn't seen for a while (like my A8, Edinburgh example) ? |
we ask for ALL sightings of mobile vans to be reported even if it is already in the database - this then gets used along with other factors when deciding if a mobile site should be removed or not.
MaFt |
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miktdish
Occasional Visitor
Joined: Jun 23, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Cartland, Scotland.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:10 pm Post subject: |
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| Darren wrote: | | I tell you what, why not ask TomTom how many subscribers they have or Garmin, or RoadAngel or anyone else offering a safety camera database and then post back the answer here. |
Well that was a hoot - so I called Garmin. ' '
They pointed me to Cyclops. Cyclops "make" the database by using very "clever methods", she told me - "using satellites-n-other technical things". Moving upwards we did get to a gentleman who told me that they have in excess of 150,000 subscribers who are managed by their partner companies ("Garmin being the largest" he offered). Back at Garmin i'm told that the Cyclops database won't work in my 2720 but third party suppliers do one which will and they suggested I talk to 'PocketGPSWorld.com' .... ' '
I asked how many subscribers they (Garmin) have and he said the number was difficult to fully calculate. They currently give away a free subscription to the newer units and a large number are subscribing after this free period expires and there is a high churn rate. When I pushed and said was it thousand 10's of Thousands or Hundreds of Thousands, he said it was approaching a 100 Thousand.
RoadAngel don't do a POi database either - they do have a telex service for Tom-Tom but the quys I spoke to really had little very knowledge. You can get a bit of a hint from the Intranetics Ltd company accounts, not as many as Garmin would be my guess.
TomTom seem to be the biggest, they can't support my Garmin either and they also seem very vague about the source of their data. "Complied and verified by a specialist survey firm" they say ... Hmmmmm (maybe it's Cyclops - it wasn't denied when I asked ;o).
I suppose I could adopt a different tack and get their marketing guys to tell me, they should be easy enough to convince that the larger number = a more accurate database = the more chance that people will buy their companies product.
Of course I could just go here http://tinyurl.com/288ds6 spend a £1 and get your accounts and divide the revenue by 19 ?
:o) |
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GPS_fan
Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: Jan 04, 2007
Posts: 2789
Location: Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:20 pm Post subject: |
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That would depend upon what figures you got - remember advertising income and other sources of revenue.
I don't understand your fascination with numbers, but each to their own.
You could get a rough idea of how successful PGPSW is by scrolling to the bottom of the forum index page.
Clearly, TomTom, Garmin et al weren't prepared to give you their figures either - so you'll be spending a lot of money probing the various accounts...but just what that will prove certainly doesn't ecxcite me 
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Andy
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Darren
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Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40
Posts: 23848
Location: Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:25 pm Post subject: |
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| miktdish wrote: | | Of course I could just spend a £1 and get your accounts and divide the revenue by 19 ? :o) |
Which would tell you very little, we only recently moved to annual only so any filed accounts would be a mix of annuals, regular monthly subscribers and occasional such as yourself. Our income is also not solely derived from the subscription income.
Why are you so interested in our subscription figures? If it's as a measure of accuracy then aside from TomTom, many of the others have no facility for customers to feedback reports so subscription figures are meaningless.
You also appear to be a little confused, Blackspot aka RoadAngel have nothing to do with Talex, they are two seperate companies. Road Angel is a major player, Talex less so. Oh and Intranetics Ltd are a retailer, not manufacturer so it's surprising they weren't more knowledgable but their accounts will tell you nothing relevant!
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Darren Griffin |
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miktdish
Occasional Visitor
Joined: Jun 23, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Cartland, Scotland.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: |
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| Darren wrote: |
Why are you so interested in our subscription figures? |
I'm not. I just wondered, it was you who said "that's sensetive information" and when you said | Darren wrote: | | I tell you what, why not ask TomTom how many subscribers they have or Garmin, or RoadAngel or anyone else offering a safety camera database and then post back the answer here. |
. I'd thought i'd give it a try.
| Darren wrote: |
You also appear to be a little confused, Oh and Intranetics Ltd are a retailer |
Oh - In my haste I had found Road-Angel a subsidiary of Intranetics, not Road Angel Group Limited.
Completely different as you said. How are Road Angel Group getting their info then ??
Do they buy it from you ? |
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Smithy22
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Joined: May 18, 2007
Posts: 4
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:10 pm Post subject: |
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I doubt PGPS sell their database to who you could say is one of the main competition along with the likes of Snooper and Origin. All these companies claim to have dedicated camera teams so find their own info through various sources but as has been said earlier think it was by Darren, they don't have a facility for users to share info they just say ring in with questions. You'll find there are a few companies who have partnered with Sat Nav manufacturers to allow speed camera databases to be loaded on to the units such as:
RoadPilot supply Navman
Cyclops supply Garmin
Talex supply Navigon
To name a few as these companies don't have their own departments it's cheaper to outsource. Also that way it's one less side of things to support but pass it on.
PGPS has the biggest flexibility working with many navigation systems but unlike some of the manufacturers don't offer standalone alerts. All depends on what you want and how often you plan to use it as I think if you drive loads maybe a dedicated system is more for you as they're updated alot more frequently especially with the likes of roadworks it's not ideal to have to wait 2-4 weeks for them to be added to the database when they're out there getting you.
Just to add I plan on getting one of the new Navman S70 or S90 when they're finally released so I'm sure I'll be able to test both their database during the trial period then this one after that and make my mind up then.
Anyway that's my 2p. |
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miktdish
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Joined: Jun 23, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Cartland, Scotland.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:14 pm Post subject: |
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| GPS_fan wrote: | That would depend upon what figures you got - remember advertising income and other sources of revenue.
I don't understand your fascination with numbers, but each to their own.
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You're right - complete nonsense really, more jockular than serious BTW.
| GPS_fan wrote: |
You could get a rough idea of how successful PGPSW is by scrolling to the bottom of the forum index page.
Clearly, TomTom, Garmin et al weren't prepared to give you their figures either |
Why should they indeed - I just wondered how many people PGPSW had sending in reports etc and tied this to subscribers. I'm really not after any secret commercial information and will not be attempting a coup in the near future.
What started as a simple question seems to be getting a bit out-of-hand.
What is interesting though is that all of the other (well the "others" that I have have found this afternoon) database suppliers seem to rely on third party "specialist surveyors" to give them up to date information.
So how can their databases be accurate as the SCP's don't give out the info (as MaFt said) ?
The only way is to get regular feedback from the subscribers and apart from TomTom this [group] seems to be the only "real" player.
If there ever was justification to subscribe to the PGPSW database then hopefully I have uncovered it this afternoon. As far as I can tell it's the most accurate, purely by it being what it is. An number (unknown) of subscribers validating the data on an ongoing basis. |
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Darren
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Joined: 11/07/2002 14:36:40
Posts: 23848
Location: Hampshire, UK
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 4:28 pm Post subject: |
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This is an issue that interests us too. Many of the established companies claim they use survey teams but this raises questions about how they could possibly 'survey' such a large area effectively. Regardless of how frequently they publish updates you have to ask yourself how they can possible be on top of this ever changing data?
When TomTom launched their database we were naturally curious as to the source of their initial data. They famously claimed to have surveyed the entire UK road network in 6 months using an outsourced company who allegedly employed students to drive around! I have no evidence to disprove their claim but a few simple calculations would prove how difficult this would be, they are also very quiet about how they verify new reports now the system is up and running and also how frequent they update their data.
Clearly we benefit from a much larger and constantly mobile base of users who provide data to us that is very much more accurate and up to date than many of the established competition. We lose out in not having a large marketing budget but gain in having customer recommendation being the key factor in much of our success.
Stand alone detectors are becoming much more niche now with so many sat nav devices available for relatively little money. I honestly believe that our product, constructed as it is and updated with the assistance of the users is the best available given the constraints of the hardware we produce for. I'm also certain that the likes of Blackspot, Cyclops etc would love a similar system.
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xda
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Joined: Mar 11, 2004
Posts: 1199
Location: Park Gate
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:09 pm Post subject: |
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| Darren wrote: | | I honestly believe that our product, constructed as it is and updated with the assistance of the users is the best available given the constraints of the hardware we produce for. I'm also certain that the likes of Blackspot, Cyclops etc would love a similar system. |
Totally agree, you only have to see how many pirated copies are posted to P2P, torrent and newsgroups as to the desirability of the PGPSW database.
Its very unlikely you will find a TomTom version or any other suppliers product.
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Graham.
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miktdish
Occasional Visitor
Joined: Jun 23, 2006
Posts: 17
Location: Cartland, Scotland.
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| Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 5:30 pm Post subject: |
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| Darren wrote: | | This is an issue that interests us too. Many of the established companies claim they use survey teams. Regardless of how frequently they publish updates you have to ask yourself how they can possible be on top of this ever changing data? |
The obvious answer to that question is that they can't. The only way to stay current is to have the database commented on by it's users and to have those comments quickly and efficiently integrated back into the product, for comment....
| Darren wrote: | | When TomTom launched their database we were naturally curious as to the source of their initial data. They famously claimed to have surveyed the entire UK road network in 6 months using an outsourced company who allegedly employed students to drive around! |
Hmmmm, I doubt you could do Scotland within that time frame and finding all the mobile/temporary sites within such a short time frame would take more than luck.
| Darren wrote: | Clearly we benefit from a much larger and constantly mobile base of users who provide data to us that is very much more accurate and up to date than many of the established competition.
Stand alone detectors are becoming much more niche now with so many sat nav devices available for relatively little money. I'm also certain that the likes of Blackspot, Cyclops etc would love a similar system. |
I'm sure they would and I think my snapshot this afternoon is entirely aligned with your (above) explanation. The others (sic) have trapped them selves by separating their data collection from their customers experience. Cyclops/Garmin especially.
I feel sure that some of your competition are using your data. If I was one, I would (that's a compliment by the way !).
Garmin seem to be trying to maintain their individuality by writing the data directly to their hardware over a secure link. This (I presume ?) precludes you from supplying owners of these devices with your database.
This made sense to a bean-counter. But (as in so many cases) he actually missed the point that it is the integrity/usefulness of the data that denotes it's worth, not the fact that you can't get it from anywhere else. Garmin, as a manufacturer, aren't interested in maintaining a database of safety cameras but they have recognised that their customers want this data in their in-car-satnavs.
Have you thought of calling Cyclops to see if they'd like to purchase last months database ?
I'm sure you could do wonders with £50,000.00 (less my commission obviously)  |
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