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chas921
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 9:20 am    Post subject: Mobile Cameras Reply with quote

Hi.............New to me but last night I saw a mobile van working the A96 West of Nairn (Scotland) Now I said `last night` as it was DARK! I did`nt think that the present cameras had the ability to see in the dark?

I only saw their Van as my headlights illuminated the front of their vehicle which was parked on my side of the verge, trapping traffic on the Easterly run, and completely opposite to where they normally sit, and on my return trip, they were positioned in a Bus stop, on the Bend (West Side Nairn) and you would not be able to react if you were over the 40 limit?

Perhaps there is new technology out there, but a first for me to see this after 2100 GMT.

Any thoughts or info!
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Darren
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I was always under the impression that they could only operate in conditions where they were able to identify vehicles as a distance in order to target them.

You say it was dark but was there are street light or other illumination?

Was this definitely a safety camera van and not ANPR or something else?
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From watching Cops and Robbers on TV, I was always under the impression that they could operate in the dark. "Identify" I'd assume means "see a vehicle coming" (as opposed to a cow or a low flying Tornado jet Laughing ). They could point the camera aiming sight thing at any oncoming headlights, camera emits a squawk to indicate target lock, then "displays" the speed. I'm pretty sure I saw a programme where a motorway police unit got somebody doing 90 in this manner. They can certainly operate in poor visibility - rain, mist etc. I've just searched through ACPO guidelines where I expected to find something about this, but didn't. Personally, I'd assume they can operate at night from the belt and braces philosophy.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:
Personally, I'd assume they can operate at night from the belt and braces philosophy.

Good advice, I think it is much more sensible to assume that given the number of reports of them operating at night.
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chas921
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darren

The first sighting (opposite the access track to the bridge / Rail workings A96) West of Nairn is between towns, countryside, and as I drove past the van on my side of the road, he dissapeared into dark, absolutely no street lighting, or for that fact any vehicle lighting. My return trip was within 45 mins whereby the second sighting was illuminated by sodium street lighting.

My belief is, that in order to make better, the effect of traffic monitoring, the vans are highly visible? The van last night was only visible in headlights, so you would not see the van until it was too late.

I had the opportunity some time back to spend an Hour at the roadside with a crew from The North East Safety Camera Partnership (NESCAMP). This really opened my eyes to what they were up to. And it changed my views about their ways.
There are limitations and all sorts of other niff and naff that they have to abide by, and believe it or not, the system allows to favour the Driver, unless your clearly making a big offence?

But last night surprised me. I know the un-marked Police vehicles along this road all use the Lite 20/20 and they work ok, but their not videoing the event.

(The two sightings were the same vehicle)

Ive no worry about my speed last night as I was only 50MPH on National Speed restricted road. But my concern is, has technology improved, if so,Drivers beware??
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

chas921 wrote:
There are limitations and all sorts of other niff and naff that they have to abide by

The ACPO Guidelines (I don't know how old they are) include specifically saying that speed cameras are only to be used to confirm the officer's opinion that somebody is speeding, i.e. the officer has to think somebody is speeding before he lines up the gun. I dunno how closely that is followed, but it makes you wonder about advertising your souped up monster with a wide noisy exhaust pipe, dunnit? Rolling Eyes
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Duddy
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 21, 2009 5:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:
chas921 wrote:
There are limitations and all sorts of other niff and naff that they have to abide by

The ACPO Guidelines (I don't know how old they are) include specifically saying that speed cameras are only to be used to confirm the officer's opinion that somebody is speeding, i.e. the officer has to think somebody is speeding before he lines up the gun. I dunno how closely that is followed, but it makes you wonder about advertising your souped up monster with a wide noisy exhaust pipe, dunnit? Rolling Eyes

I'm not up on current traffic law but when I was in the job it was a legal requirement for speeding to be proven by 2 means i.e. Officer believes your speeding and is confirmed by other approved equipment. I'd love to see an officer, stood at the side of the road or in a stationary vehicle prove he was capable of estimating the speed of a car with no street lighting.
With regards to the poor weather we were always permitted to check speed in rain etc but having regards to safety in stopping the offending vehicle it was rarely done (i.e. we didn't like getting wet)
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chas921
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 22, 2009 12:00 am    Post subject: *UPDATE* Reply with quote

*UPDATE*

I can now confirm that the Northern Safety Camera Partnership (NSCP)camera van was/is carrying out Automatic Number Plate Recognition (ANPR) duties, on behalf of the Northern Constabulary.

I can also confirm that the normal equipment and methods used for recording speed CAN be used under low light conditions ie street lighting.
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MikeGordon
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:29 pm    Post subject: Speed camera?? Reply with quote

I saw something for the first time in Northwood Hills in NW London the other day. About 100 yards from a roundabout on the A404 the Met had set up what looked like a single bog-standard video camera. A couple of hundred yards further down a few people had been pulled over and they were being talked to by some officers and details being taken. No chase cars or bikes were obvious.

I am not sure whether they were speed cameras because the distance from the roundabout seemed too short or whether they were checking tax/insurance details with DVLA but my question is: "Can they check these details that quickly?"

Personally, I don't have a problem with police pinching these people. They cost all of us about £44 a head on our insurance premiums if you can believe what you read and no one wants to be hit by an uninsured driver.

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Darren
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 7:47 pm    Post subject: Re: Speed camera?? Reply with quote

MikeGordon wrote:
my question is: "Can they check these details that quickly?"

ANPR can check registration against the DVLA and Insurance databases in real-time i.e. plate appears in camera view and will flag an alarm instantly along with a snapshot of the car if it is believed to have PNC markers, expired MoT, no keeper or no insurance.

Not only that but it can do so continuously and can read and check 2 or three every second.

I think the use of ANPR in road traffic stings to trap uninsured/licenced vehicles or drivers etc. is to be applauded as I suspect do most of us who pay our road tax, insure our cars etc.
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Having been hit by an uninsured TWOC driver nearly 40 years ago, I am here to agree 100% with ANPR and Darren (it usually checks for MOT and the police national computer for criminal associations too).

At my age, I often spend happy hours vegetating on the sofa watching the Police, Camera, Action programmes on telly and I've seen this in real time - there was even one unit which announced a "strike" by shouting Fred Flintstone's "Yabadabadooooo" as it flashed up the offending registration plate - nice cops and robbers chase ensues - love it!
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 09, 2009 10:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DennisN wrote:
(it usually checks for MOT and the police national computer for criminal associations too).


AND non-criminal ones too...

If you're unlucky enough to have been dubbed a "domestic extremist" (i.e. if you dare to join a peaceful demonstration or protest), you can expect to be stopped repeatedly these days.

For example:
Quote:
Vehicles associated with protesters are being tracked via a nationwide system of automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras. One man, who has no criminal record, was stopped more than 25 times in less than three years after a "protest" marker was placed against his car after he attended a small protest against duck and pheasant shooting.

ANPR "interceptor teams" are being deployed on roads leading to protests to monitor attendance.

(from an Original Grauniad article)
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Darren
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 11:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Andy_P wrote:
For example:
Quote:
Vehicles associated with protesters are being tracked via a nationwide system of automatic number plate recognition (ANPR) cameras. One man, who has no criminal record, was stopped more than 25 times in less than three years after a "protest" marker was placed against his car after he attended a small protest against duck and pheasant shooting.

ANPR "interceptor teams" are being deployed on roads leading to protests to monitor attendance.

(from an Original Grauniad article)

Hmm 2+2=5 there methinks. The ability to place a marker against a PNC record is nothing new and there is no network of ANPR as suggested.

If Police have an interest in someone then why not use technology to identify them? The issue you raise is what is and is not a legitimate reason for someone to be flagged in this way but that's a different debate entirely.

And we all know that what a paper publishes is rarely the whole story or even a factual part of it!
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BigPerk
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree - it's difficult to draw the line, but regular protesters as a whole do include a (small) number of very unpleasant people who may not get a criminal record until the police get enough evidence and intelligence for a conviction - remember the Biolab 'hate campaign' protests not so long ago, which extended over several years? And terrorists obviously form a (VERY small) % of some groups - the question is "which %?"

Of course discretion is key, and 'Black Rats' (a Yard colleague's description, not mine!) are not always well up in that area unfortunately. I'm sure that detectives themselves DO differentiate between 'innocent' protesters and the really important ones - after all they haven't got all the time in the world to follow everyone.

Mind you, as for ANPR, while there may not be an official 'network' I thought there were sufficient on motorways to be used for 'track and trace' where appropriate?
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 10, 2009 6:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigPerk wrote:
I agree - it's difficult to draw the line, but regular protesters as a whole do include a (small) number of very unpleasant people who may not get a criminal record until the police get enough evidence and intelligence for a conviction

Which in my opinion is NOT sufficient justification for effectively criminalising everyone else.
"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniences of too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it". (Thomas Jefferson -1791)

Quote:
I'm sure that detectives themselves DO differentiate between 'innocent' protesters and the really important ones - after all they haven't got all the time in the world to follow everyone.

No, they leave that to the bored 'plod'. The same ones who like to use their Tasers on people who're being a bit lippy because "it makes them wet their pants and that shuts them up"

Quote:
Mind you, as for ANPR, while there may not be an official 'network' I thought there were sufficient on motorways to be used for 'track and trace' where appropriate?

Or inappropriate.
"It is seldom that liberty of any kind is lost all at once" - David Hume (1711-1776)
It seems to happen in any society, that some day the bunch in power start abusing that power. They may think they are doing it for genuine reasons, but it always ends up the same.

The difference now is that technology is making it so much easier for for tyranny to slip in the back door, and now the "threat of terrorism" can be used for just about anything (tried taking a photograph of a policeman recently?).

One day I can hear the argument that the whole country should have curfews, 24/7 surveillance, tracking chips in everything (including us) and government is God, deciding what people can and can't do in every area of life. Of course it will be for our own good and if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear... (where did we hear that one?)

Rant mode off...
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