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4 year-old Killed - Sat Navs and Learner Drivers
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Guivre46
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 03, 2011 2:08 pm    Post subject: 4 year-old Killed - Sat Navs and Learner Drivers Reply with quote

I don't think it would be right to make too much comment: Bolton News

Road directions must come first, sat nav directions only second.
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Last edited by Guivre46 on Sun May 15, 2011 11:48 am; edited 2 times in total
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 2:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think this is the intersection.

I can't understand how the Sat Nav error "caused" the crash. The fundamental problem is that the driver made an illegal right turn and was hit by an oncoming car. The restriction is clearly marked and the traffic light shows a green arrow for ahead only.

But even if there was no turn restriction, the driver would have still had to yield right of way to the vehicle that hit him.

It sounds like a learner driver misjudging the situation with tragic consequences. Very sad. Confused
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newtomoneowner
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PostPosted: Fri Feb 04, 2011 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just read this story in the paper, and im saddened to hear that once again a satnav unit, that doesnt press pedals or turn a steering wheel has supposedly caused a death..

Time after time satnavs are blamed when something goes wrong, lorry drivers getting stuck etc when it comes down to human error, yes the maps can be wrong, road conditions chance regularly and right turns and one way streets can appear sometimes overnight, as and when councils want to bring in road calming measures or for road works.

This is dealt with my tomtom and the like bringing in upto date maps and if you cant or wont buy the latest version then yes you are going to find the satnav leading you up the garden path so to speak.

I am sorry to hear though that a litttle girl lost her life though, but its no different to her mum or dad being neglectful of her safety by leaving the gas turned on or letting her play with a plastic bag, ultimately the parents are to blame and not todays technology.

Oh and yes im a parent who has raised 4 kids so i do know.
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MaFt
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

just read the latest on this...: http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/districtnews/8851217.Change_road_that_killed_our_little_princess/

Had a look at Street View for this junction and the only place that the accident could have happened was travelling south-east on the A6 as all theother directions allow right turns.

Street view link

regardless of satnav instructions, these things need asking: why did the driver miss/ignore the great big 'AHEAD ONLY' on the floor? why did they miss the no right turn sign on the lights? why did they miss the ahead-only green light? and, perhaps most worrying, why did they set off when there was obviously a car coming the other way?

even if you decide to ignore the signs and blindly follow a satnav's instructions, the first thing you do when turning right and crossing another lane of traffic is check to see if it is clear or not?! even if you COULD turn right at that junction you would still check if a vehicle was coming the other way?

the satnav is clearly not to blame here and it seems to be an 'excuse' - the latest news article clearly says the driver ignored the signs yet still adds the fact his satnav told him to do it...

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Guivre46
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 1:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Agree with your views on signage, ahead only beyond dispute. But do think it is a pretty low-key arrangement for such a lethal looking road ie fast traffic approaching around a bend.
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Duddy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 4:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guivre46 wrote:
Agree with your views on signage, ahead only beyond dispute. But do think it is a pretty low-key arrangement for such a lethal looking road ie fast traffic approaching around a bend.


Sorry, I disagree, the signage is not low key.
1 advance roadside sign of No right turn at junction (on direction board)
1 Ahead only with arrow painted on the road surface
3 Ahead only arrows on the traffic signals
3 NO right turn signs on the traffic signal posts
+ oncoming traffic

Any more and newspapers/ defence solicitors will start "There are too many signs making the junction confusing"

I worked this area, many years ago, No traffic signals just give way lines on Station road and no turn restrictions.

The traffic signals and signage have been increased, over the years, in an effort to improve the accident rate.

The current story has little to do with SatNavs, if the SatNav had said "Now punch yourself in the face" would the driver have done it.

Yes I agree a very sad occurance, and I've dealt with too many, but it's down to bad driving, not Satnavs, these are usually offered as an excuse by defence solicitors after the fact, in court, it's the latest in a long line of excuses for a road accident.
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Guivre46
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suppose I was speaking as someone who suffers from TfL's over-the-top junction controls. I'd like to see what they could do with this one.
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 7:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This was tragic. But the driver was a learner, the child's father, who was being supervised by his wife, her mother. Sadly, I think this looks like the parents being so distraught they have to find some way to drop the blame from themselves.
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theripper
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Guivre46 wrote:
I suppose I was speaking as someone who suffers from TfL's over-the-top junction controls. I'd like to see what they could do with this one.


They would probably turn it into a roundabout controlled by traffic lights!!
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Tue Feb 15, 2011 9:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I guess the final question to add to MaFt's list is "Why didn't the licensed driver supervising the learner take action to prevent the crash?".

DennisN wrote:
This was tragic. But the driver was a learner, the child's father, who was being supervised by his wife, her mother. Sadly, I think this looks like the parents being so distraught they have to find some way to drop the blame from themselves.


Agree 100% with what Dennis says. That's the way of the world now. Nothing is ever our own fault or an accident or a mistake. There has always got to be someone else to blame when things go wrong.
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BigPerk
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

A thought does occur to me here - although we all agree that you must treat the satnav as advisory only, am I the only one who sometimes finds a mental conflict/distraction when the satnav says 'do this' and the road says 'do that'? It may be the dreaded Alzh of course but I am trying to refer to the satnav a bit less, for instance, when I've just got it on for traffic in a familiar area, because I sometimes definitely find a tendency to concentrate too much on the satnav's dulcit tones, instead of road direction signs.

So my thought is, should learner drivers actually use a satnav, at least in the early stages?
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Guivre46
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 8:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's probably something in what you say. Maybe the satnav should be turned toward the qualified supervisor, and away from the learner. Only the supervisor would then be telling the learner what to do.
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigPerk wrote:
am I the only one who sometimes finds a mental conflict/distraction when the satnav says 'do this' and the road says 'do that'?


No, I've been using them for about 7 years and I still find it difficult on occasion especially with the spaghetti of some British road layouts. The latest Nuvi and TomTom units are much better with things like lane guidance but they can still struggle to make themselves clear when the road layout is confusing and the driver is busy due to fast moving or heavy traffic.

eg, the road curves to the right as part of a junction and the sat nav says "Turn left" but it really means "follow the road around to the right for another 100 yards and THEN turn left". You look at the map and understand but just listening to the directions will see you taking the wrong turn sometimes.

BigPerk wrote:
So my thought is, should learner drivers actually use a satnav, at least in the early stages?


Good point. It would be good if new (and existing!) drivers were trained to use a sat nav, practised judging distances, 800/400/200/100 yards so they could interpret the instructions confidently especially as they will most likely be using it on unfamiliar roads.

Perhaps in time, part of the test will involve following instructions from a sat nav - and perhaps even dealing with the situation when a sat nav tells them to do something illegal/impossible......
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Skippy wrote:
eg, the road curves to the right as part of a junction and the sat nav says "Turn left" but it really means "follow the road around to the right for another 100 yards and THEN turn left". You look at the map and understand but just listening to the directions will see you taking the wrong turn sometimes.

This is the single most annoying thing I ever get. Having more than one device, displaying 2D and 3D modes helps to overcome it, but the times when I've almost shouted at her in annoyance....!! I haven't been misled yet, but it bothers me.

I think "they" should add in Highway Code that Learners MUST NOT use satnavs.
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Andy_P
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PostPosted: Wed Feb 16, 2011 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BigPerk wrote:
am I the only one who sometimes finds a mental conflict/distraction when the satnav says 'do this' and the road says 'do that'?

So my thought is, should learner drivers actually use a satnav, at least in the early stages?


Some very good points here and in the replies so far.

I've been driving for yonks, but more than once I've found myself pulling up a bit sharply at some traffic lights at a junction, and thinking to myself about the TomTom:
"You told me to "turn left" but you didn't tell me to stop first!"

Also, has anyone noticed that if you are listening to something interesting the radio (speech), how hard it is to concentrate on it if a series of directions start coming from the sat-nav, even if they are a lot quieter?
Your brain automatically seems to listen harder to "instructions", from whatever source.
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