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Privateer
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Joined: 30/12/2002 17:36:20
Posts: 4912
Location: Oxfordshire, England, UK
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 Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 7:53 pm Post subject: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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That bastion of truth and accurate reporting, The Oxford Mail, has reported that after only three months of switching off the fixed speed cameras, the Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on. Please see here and here.
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Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 10118
Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
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| Posted: Wed Nov 03, 2010 8:03 pm Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| Quote: | | A month after the switch-off, radar speed surveys showed drivers committed up to four times more speed offences at the camera site at Cumnor Hill/West Way in Botley. |
But there were no reports of increased accident rate, which speed cams are reputed to reduce  |
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Privateer
Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: 30/12/2002 17:36:20
Posts: 4912
Location: Oxfordshire, England, UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 11:33 am Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| M8TJT wrote: | | But there were no reports of increased accident rate, which speed cams are reputed to reduce |
That's correct. However it was reported that the number of drivers speeding at the camera sites increased:
| Oxford Mail wrote: | | A month after the switch-off, radar speed surveys showed drivers committed up to four times more speed offences at the camera site at Cumnor Hill/West Way in Botley. |
If the Oxford Mail reports are true, then something does need to be done if the number of drivers who speed past a camera site increase.
Regards,
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Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 10118
Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:08 pm Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| Privateer wrote: | | If the Oxford Mail reports are true, then something does need to be done if the number of drivers who speed past a camera site increase. |
But wasn't it rumoured that speed cams were installed to reduce accidents? Perhaps they were installed to raise revenue from speeding drivers instead |
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Privateer
Pocket GPS Moderator
Joined: 30/12/2002 17:36:20
Posts: 4912
Location: Oxfordshire, England, UK
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 12:30 pm Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| M8TJT wrote: | | But wasn't it rumoured that speed cams were installed to reduce accidents? |
That's only a rumour!
| M8TJT wrote: | | Perhaps they were installed to raise revenue from speeding drivers instead |
That's the premise that I've always worked to. 
Regards,
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Guivre46
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Joined: Apr 14, 2010
Posts: 1262
Location: West London
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| Posted: Thu Nov 04, 2010 1:01 pm Post subject: |
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That's the trouble with newspaper reports - no specifics. We've discussed before that in a 30-zone, the camera was probably set to catch 35+ speeders. Who was operating the radar detectors? What was reported by the radar detectors? A lot of people doing 33/34? As above, are there any accident figures?
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Mike R [aka Wyvern46]
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aj2052
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Joined: Jul 03, 2005
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Location: Leics,UK
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 12:35 am Post subject: |
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How did they verify the increase in speeding ?
A journo standing on the side of the road observing or a calibrated mobile camera?
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Skippy
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Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12
Posts: 2946
Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
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| Posted: Fri Nov 05, 2010 11:06 pm Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| M8TJT wrote: | | But wasn't it rumoured that speed cams were installed to reduce accidents? Perhaps they were installed to raise revenue from speeding drivers instead |
I've heard that rumour too!
Perhaps they are switching them back on quickly because they are worried that despite the traffic flowing substantially faster, there has been no corresponding increase in crashes and they are concerned that this will destroy their carefully cultivated myth that speed cameras are there to save lives rather than just make money.... 
| aj2052 wrote: | How did they verify the increase in speeding ?
A journo standing on the side of the road observing or a calibrated mobile camera? |
I got the impression it was done in a fairly small sample by placing a mobile camera van at certain locations.
If they were really interested in a scientific measurement then they would have placed a large number of car counters (the rubber strips across the road) which count the number of cars and record their speed before and after the announcement so they could make a scientific assessment of the actual change in behaviour.
But of course they have no interest in that.... They have their agenda and that's that.
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 10118
Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:41 am Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| Skippy wrote: | | They have their agenda and that's that. |
And aparently renewed funding  |
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Kremmen
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Joined: Mar 03, 2006
Posts: 7040
Location: Reading
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 7:27 am Post subject: |
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Whether these cameras are on or off, why advertise it ?
If they don't want to fund the collection of film then fine, just leave them as roadside deterrents.
Telling everyone that they are now dummies is asking for speeding IMO
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DennisN
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Joined: Feb 27, 2006
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| Skippy wrote: | | If they were really interested in a scientific measurement then they would have placed a large number of car counters (the rubber strips across the road) which count the number of cars and record their speed before and after the announcement so they could make a scientific assessment of the actual change in behaviour. |
My bold/colour. Do those rubber things actually record speed? - I always thought they only counted and not entirely accurately at that.
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If it tastes good - it's fattening.
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Skippy
Pocket GPS Verifier
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12
Posts: 2946
Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:50 am Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| DennisN wrote: | | My bold/colour. Do those rubber things actually record speed? - I always thought they only counted and not entirely accurately at that. |
Sure. They count the number of axles and the speed. They aren't accurate enough for speed enforcement but they give a pretty good idea of the speed the traffic is moving at.
Yes, they will get some outlandish results (imagine traffic going in opposite directions trip the counter at the same time) but they can disregard these results and get a pretty good ball park idea of the average and 90th percentile speed.
These can take a sample over a few weeks as opposed to a sample taken over a few hours by a speed camera van. Even with a few inaccurate readings of the car counter, it's got to be a statistically more relevant sample than a few hours with a speed camera at a self selected time (eg, when the traffic is light and will be moving fast).
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 10118
Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| Skippy wrote: | | it's got to be a statistically more relevant sample than a few hours with a speed camera at a self selected time (eg, when the traffic is light and will be moving fast). |
But surely, this is the time when speeders will speed. The average over the day is about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. |
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Skippy
Pocket GPS Verifier
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12
Posts: 2946
Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 12:39 pm Post subject: Re: Oxfordshire fixed speed cameras to be switched back on! |
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| M8TJT wrote: | | But surely, this is the time when speeders will speed. The average over the day is about as much use as a chocolate fire guard. |
A small sample is statistically insignificant. This process is widely abused by taking small samples and extrapolating them out of all proportion. People often use bad science used to push their agenda and "prove" something.
Traffic flows and therefore speeds vary widely during the day so you need to monitor the site for a couple of weeks (at least) to even get close to a statistically significant sample. Allowing the scamera partnership to select the times that they take the before and after samples is going to leave them open to accusations of bias. Also, as the sampling is not scientifically done, they can self select the samples they use. If it doesn't prove their bias then they disregard it as an "anomaly" and go back to do the test again until they get the result they want. Likewise, they can bury unhelpful survey information if it doesn't support their bias.
If you want to "prove" that a speed camera slows people down then all you have to do is measure the speeds over 1 hour at a light traffic time then measure them again at a heavy traffic time and hey presto, you have your "proof".
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M8TJT
The Other Tired Old Man
Joined: Apr 04, 2006
Posts: 10118
Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
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| Posted: Sat Nov 06, 2010 4:51 pm Post subject: |
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Although I agree with you to some extent in principle (so do 85% of the 183 women we tried the cream on), if the traffic is slowed by the sheer volume of traffic to say 20MPH, it would be, even by being very selective, impossible to prove that more or fewer people are speeding, as they can't even if they wanted to.
The survey must be carried out at the time of day when the traffic is light enough to give people the choice as to whether to speed or not for the survey to have any meaning. I rest my case (for the time being)  |
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