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JoolsTwo
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Location: Mid Sussex
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 Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:29 pm Post subject: Non-police speedtraps |
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Several times lately in a village on my route to/from work I've spotted several do-gooders (local residents perhaps?) in HI-VIS tabards filming cars travelling through the village above the speed limit. I haven't been going slow enough (joke  )to see exactly what equipment they're using, but I was wondering; Do they have any legal authortiy and can the info be used to procecute? Or is this one of those schemes where they write you a letter saying "you're a very naughty boy?"
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Kremmen
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 1:53 pm Post subject: |
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There was a program on the telly some months ago about something like this but I forget what the end result was
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Daggers
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| Posted: Fri Jul 30, 2010 2:43 pm Post subject: |
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They are doing the same thing in my area too. An article in the local rag states "Drivers caught by Speedwatch will be handed a police warning and repeat offenders could end up in court"
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Andy_P
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 6:51 pm Post subject: |
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They've no legal authority, but they borrow the gear from the police and pass the details back to them.
You're likely to get a "naughty boy" letter but they can't do anything else. |
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DennisN
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:02 pm Post subject: |
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I'm pretty sure we have a thread somewhere in which it was pointed out that these are amateurs, not properly trained or qualified, who could not give evidence and their camera records could not be given in evidence. It's said that mobile cameras must be calibrated against a police car with calibrated speedo and those people don't have access to that facility. It takes a police officer's witness evidence to prosecute or issue tickets.
The worst the letter could say is that they've been told that you were speeding, so if you were, please don't in future. Hearsay, I think it's called.
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Guivre46
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| Posted: Sat Jul 31, 2010 11:24 pm Post subject: |
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How many outfits can operate speed cameras legitimately? Obviously the cops, but assume also the Local council community safety dept. may do so, as they fund fixed cameras? What about the Highways Agency?
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spook51
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 6:09 am Post subject: |
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'Community Speedwatch' started in 2001 in Ash, Somerset following complaints about the spped of drivers through the village - the first people they caught speeding were residents of the village.
Fuelled by zealous do-gooders from parish and town councils and neighbourhood watch schemes, it proliferated throughout the county with local groups operating under police guidance and using surplus ex-police radar guns. Several local councils bought their own guns but often found it difficult to recruit enough volunteers to operate them.
All they can do is send letters but if a driver receives three from them the police will be in touch.
The only time I've seen them in action they haven't operated their equipment in accordance with police guidelines, in fact the old dear holding the gun looked incapable of holding it steady enough for it to get a valid reading.
The only worrying thing is that with Cameron's 'Big Society' agenda such groups may be given legal authority to enforce local speed limits but for the moment I wouldn't be too concerned. |
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M8TJT
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Location: Bexhill, South Sussex, UK
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 7:32 am Post subject: |
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And I suspect that these do gooders are yet another class of people that the DVLA will sell our details to.  |
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spook51
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 10:52 am Post subject: |
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| M8TJT wrote: | | And I suspect that these do gooders are yet another class of people that the DVLA will sell our details to. |
They've been around almost ten years and haven't had access so far but they haven't needed it as they've worked in cahoots with the police. How (if) that might change is anybody's guess. |
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DennisN
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| spook51 wrote: | | All they can do is send letters but if a driver receives three from them the police will be in touch. |
| spook51 wrote: | | haven't had access so far but they haven't needed it as they've worked in cahoots with the police. |
Make your mind up - either they have access or they don't. Do the police supply them with our details? I think NOT. It's my understanding that they can provide details to the police who may or may not send a letter. Whatever, the camera evidence is not official and cannot be used for any purpose - it would fall down in court for example if anybody attempted to use it in evidence that "we" are repeat offenders. I can imagine that if you've got the bottle, you could challenge any police letter for lack of evidence/proof. For a (poor) picture of a group in action, see down the page here
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Oldboy
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 3:42 pm Post subject: |
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I have no experience of the Community Speed Watch, so have quoted from the information that has been posted in my local area.
| Quote: | The Community Speed Watch initiative allows communities to address issues of speeding by becoming actively involved in road safety, working in partnership with the police. Speed monitoring is carried out by volunteers, trained to verify and record the registration numbers of speeding vehicles. The details are then sent to the local constabulary who will contact drivers by letter with follow up visits being made to the homes of persistent speeders. The intention of the scheme being not to penalise, but to persuade, warn and educate drivers to reduce their speed. There will be no direct contact between the volunteers and the drivers.
For CSW to operate, we would require a co-ordinator and a minimum of six volunteers, who would be CRB checked. We would then identify the sites suitable for checks to be carried out.
The group would seek grants of about £1200 to cover the cost of setting up the scheme, but in the past County Councillors have been very generous in funding schemes within their areas. The grants would be used to purchase the Speed Laser device, signs and high visibility jackets. |
Several villages in Suffolk already have the scheme operating, with more in the pipeline.
The part that interests me is "... trained to verify and record ...". By whom?
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spook51
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Location: East Midlands
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| Posted: Sun Aug 01, 2010 4:16 pm Post subject: |
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| DennisN wrote: | | spook51 wrote: | | All they can do is send letters but if a driver receives three from them the police will be in touch. |
| spook51 wrote: | | haven't had access so far but they haven't needed it as they've worked in cahoots with the police. |
Make your mind up - either they have access or they don't. Do the police supply them with our details? I think NOT. It's my understanding that they can provide details to the police who may or may not send a letter. Whatever, the camera evidence is not official and cannot be used for any purpose - it would fall down in court for example if anybody attempted to use it in evidence that "we" are repeat offenders. I can imagine that if you've got the bottle, you could challenge any police letter for lack of evidence/proof. For a (poor) picture of a group in action, see down the page here |
The groups I am aware of in Somerset use radar guns, not cameras and the 'evidence' they collect is supplied to the police who train them in the correct use of the equipment. The police send out letters in the name of Community Speedwatch - that's what "working in cahoots with the police" means. A third letter to the same driver triggers a police (not Community Speedwatch) response.
In recent years, county councillors in Somerset were each given a budget to fund local community initiatives in their divisions; some provided funding for radar guns.
Community Speed Watch are not currently enforcers so no court appearances are possible as a direct result of their activities. With the withdrawal of funding to Safety Camera Partnerships, these local 'speed freaks' may take on a different role given that the Big Society agenda includes local accountablility. |
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JoolsTwo
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Location: Mid Sussex
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 8:54 am Post subject: |
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Thanks for all the comments, I thought that was more or less how they worked. As they are always in the same location I'm cautious of the location so have always managed to spot them in time,not as thought you can go particularly fast past that point on the homeward journey (luckily they're no up at 06:30  )
Anyway, are we interested in noting the location of such schemes and if so what should it be recorded as, mobile speed trap?
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spook51
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:44 am Post subject: |
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| JoolsTwo wrote: |
Anyway, are we interested in noting the location of such schemes and if so what should it be recorded as, mobile speed trap? |
I wouldn't. They pop out of the undergrowth in different places depending on who made the most noise at the last parish council meeting and aren't enforcers as such, merely observers. Taking them seriously might encourage them, ignore them and hopefully they will disappear. |
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Daggers
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Location: Solihull, UK
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| Posted: Mon Aug 02, 2010 10:57 am Post subject: |
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| JoolsTwo wrote: | | Anyway, are we interested in noting the location of such schemes and if so what should it be recorded as, mobile speed trap? |
No - if you read the article that Dennis linked to, it states. "I myself have only once seen a camera van at a site I went to check and I once saw this local community speedwatch group (which is not a mobile camera)."
| Quote: | | For CSW to operate, we would require a co-ordinator and a minimum of six volunteers, who would be CRB checked. We would then identify the sites suitable for checks to be carried out. |
Why do they need to be CRB checked? I thought this was only for people working with children or vulnerable adults. The volunteers aren't actually approaching any of the drivers (and children shouldn't be driving cars anyway!).
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