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Are Average Cameras Proving to be the Dream Ticket?
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RobBrady
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:25 am    Post subject: Are Average Cameras Proving to be the Dream Ticket? Reply with quote

pocketgpsworld.comWigan Today have reported that despite very obvious warning messages of upcoming average speed cameras, motorists appear to be totally ignoring their speeds and picking up 60 tickets.

In fact over 1600 tickets have been issued in just a few weeks on one stretch of roadworks on the M6 between Orrell and Standish. An average of 30 drivers a day are being fined.

A spokesman for the Merseyside Safety Camera Partnership said: "It seems amazing that so many people should be caught speeding when the cameras' presence and the speed limits are so clear."

Whether drivers are flouting the cameras because they don't believe they are going to get caught or they're simply daydreaming is unclear. I suspect the latter.

How often have you lost focus and driven on autopilot? Have you ever forgotten that you're driving through an average speed zone once you've entered it and at what stage does it become driving without due care and attention?
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:57 am    Post subject: Re: Are Average Cameras Proving to be the Dream Ticket? Reply with quote

News Team wrote:
How often have you .....driven on autopilot?
Or even cruise control Very Happy But they seem to be a nice little earner though Confused
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

When Bo Peep and I recently (Good Friday 2 April 2010) used the M4 (junction 7 to 11) a SPECS zone, we were in a traffic jam for some of the route due to an earlier accident. When the jam cleared, a lot of the vehicles sped up to speeds to appeared to be much higher than the 50 mph limit that was monitored by the SPECS!

I suspect that this instance was due more to drivers' relief of having a clear road. I guess that a lot of those drivers will soon be receiving letters!

Regards,
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hawk74
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 12:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

From what I have seen. It looks like there is a large proportion of people who do not know what "average" means! On numerous occasions I have seen people speed past only to brake for the SPECS and then once past speed up again.

So I am not surprised! Rolling Eyes
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andrewdwork
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 1:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can anyone actually verify if average speed is the average of the speed measured at several cameras, or an actual true MPH average over the distance of several cameras?

I have seen many people do as described in the above post, maybe hiting 70MPH in between the posts, but slowing at the camera areas.

Living with a long-ish 50MPH limit on the M1 from J28 to J25 I am used to crawling along, but often wonder how they get away with it.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

andrewdwork wrote:
Can anyone actually verify if average speed is the average of the speed measured at several cameras, or an actual true MPH average over the distance of several cameras?.
An individual specs cam does not measure your speed. Your time between two cams is measured, then your speed calculated by Distance/Time.
andrewdwork wrote:
Living with a long-ish 50MPH limit on the M1 from J28 to J25 I am used to crawling along, but often wonder how they get away with it.
It would appear that they don't.
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
In fact over 1600 tickets have been issued in just a few weeks on one stretch of roadworks on the M6 between Orrell and Standish. An average of 30 drivers a day are being fined.

I wonder how many are foreign drivers, with foreign registrations which aren't being chased down? There will be at least 30 foreign drivers a day on the M6. Have all the fines actually been collected?

andrewdwork it's the average between any two cameras, not the entire length (logical - if the average is excessive between cameras 1 and 6, it'll be excessive between at least two of the intermediate cameras. Interesting to learn how many fines and points you could pick up if you did 75 through a 5 camera stretch, merely slowing down momentarily to 50 at each camera!).
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DarrenR21373
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 7:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit that I've often wondered if SPECS cameras actually work, or are just dummies.

The reason for this is as soon as I see the 1st yellow vulture in the distance, I get into the inside lane, drop my speed to bang on or just below the limit by the speedo (to be on the safe side - you never know what the tolerances are these days, even though they should be 10%+2 under ACPO guidelines) and if the vehicle I'm driving has it, set the cruise control.

I then look on in disbelief as people continue to blast towards and sometimes through the 1st camera at 70-80+ MPH in the outside lane, maybe slowing just before the 2nd one, speeding up again until the next camera and so on - their average has got to be near 65 in a 50.

As was mentioned above, people don't seem to know what average means... and these are mostly British registered vehicles. I suppose they could be hire cars, driven by foreigners?
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worried
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 8:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The actual speedometer accuracy regulation under EU law is minus zero to plus 10%.

On my vehicle it is approx 7% and the Odometer is virtually accurate.

My Navman shows the actual correct speed on the screen to 0.1 MPH, and I have calibrated that.

My job before I retired was to check and calibrate Speedometers as part of my Job Function.
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 9:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@worried. I am not disagreeing with you ref the speedo accuracy regulation, but I believe the previous post was confusing the speed at which a prosecution occurs from a speed cam as 10%+2mph with the accuracy required of a speedo

PS How did you calibrate the Navman?
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DarrenR21373
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yup, my bad (as the kids say today).

I was referring to police prosecution thresholds - I should have made that clearer!

Still, it's nice to know that speedos can be 10% over by law - that explains why every vehicle I've driven reads higher than TomTom's speed reading. Although that brings us onto another topic altogether - GPS devices' speed readout accuracy...

Blow it - I'll just stick to setting cruise control at or near the limit by the speedo in SPECS zones - it's easier Wink
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DennisN
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 10:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DarrenR21373 wrote:
you never know what the tolerances are these days, even though they should be 10%+2 under ACPO guidelines

I think this is a good question relating to Specs Average Speed cameras. We're talking AVERAGE speed here, so if a tolerance of 10%+2 is permitted, then in a 50mph Specs zone they would be tolerating an average speed of 57mph - allowing fluctuation, that might mean someone gets away with driving at an AVERAGE of 63mph according to his 10% over speedo and that's ridiculous isn't it? 50mph zone but it's OK to drive at an average of 63mph - that's a helluva lot over 50mph - more than 25% over! And assuming someone "Accidentally, momentarily, drifts over" the 63mph to say 65, or even 70, isn't that what you've been seeing whizzing past you?

If I were in charge of Specs camera settings, they'd all be set to ZERO TOLERANCE. Evil or Very Mad I believe with the speedo accuracy law of MINUS ZERO, there is no excuse for exceeding average speed limit zones. Why do we talk about "what tolerance can I get up to"? I look forward to the day when somebody reports being trapped by a Specs camera doing more than 0% above the speed limit.

It seems that DarrenR21373 is something of a rare driver if he drops to the speed limit as indicated by his speedometer. Long may he thrive!
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Philip
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PostPosted: Tue Apr 06, 2010 11:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Are Average Cameras Proving to be the Dream Ticket? Reply with quote

RobBrady wrote:
An average of 30 drivers a day are being fined.
That sounds to me like a tiny percentage of the traffic which must use that stretch of the M6!

Of course the real problem with average speed cameras and their associated ANPR software is nothing to do with their detection rates. It's to do with the surveillance society, and providing the powers that be with more and more information about where every car is at every moment in time.

We are all expected to give up our privacy just in case there may be a terrorist somewhere on the road.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. Benjamin Franklin

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Skippy
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:23 am    Post subject: Re: Are Average Cameras Proving to be the Dream Ticket? Reply with quote

RobBrady wrote:
An average of 30 drivers a day are being fined.


I'll bet you they won't say how many vehicles pass through the area every day though.

I'd say that these are people who drive through (maybe in the middle of the night) and forget that there is a limit or people in stolen/cloned vehicles.
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PostPosted: Wed Apr 07, 2010 12:58 am    Post subject: Re: Are Average Cameras Proving to be the Dream Ticket? Reply with quote

Philip wrote:
It's to do with the surveillance society, and providing the powers that be with more and more information about where every car is at every moment in time.

I think you may find it's more to do with finding out what the rich are doing with their beamers, porsches, jags and alfas etc.
Quote:
people from the wealthiest quintile of households travel more than three times further by car than those in the poorest quintile of households - Department of Transport and KMC Highways

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