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Joined: Feb 26, 2006 Posts: 7 Location: Saltash Just outside Plymouth
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 9:47 am Post subject: L1 / L2 P1
hi all I am just waiting for a text off my mate who was down deepest darkest cornwall with his gps, The MoD have been doing several test blocking the L1 frequency (civvy) and seeing how it affected P1 (Mil) to access P1 you need the Crypto.
I may just be suspicious or argumentative but if they can do this what is to stop them doing it permanently and then charging for you to use it.
theripper
They can't do it with the current satellites as there is no mechanism to charge people. Expect that to change when Gallileo finally comes along.
Joined: Apr 07, 2006 Posts: 249 Location: Kent , England
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 12:56 pm Post subject:
theripper wrote:
I may just be suspicious or argumentative but if they can do this what is to stop them doing it permanently and then charging for you to use it.
theripper
I love a good conspiracy theory !!!!
Gordon Brown is'nt down in Cornwall on "holiday" is he ?
( Tap tapping away on a calculator , working out how much he could charge for this ) _________________ Keith
TomTom GO 730T App 8.392 (1909/091109) , W and CE 2GB v835.2419
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Sat Jun 09, 2007 1:01 pm Post subject:
theripper wrote:
I may just be suspicious or argumentative but if they can do this what is to stop them doing it permanently and then charging for you to use it.
The UK have no control over the Navstar GPS system which is operated by the US Military. There is no practical way that another country could force people to pay money to use the system.
I am amazed that they are getting away with testing GPS jamming systems AT ALL. Why don't they go out in the middle of the sea and test it rather than doing it in a populated area?
I think they are deliberately testing it in a populated area to test how much disruption it will cause to civilian users and how much they complain so they can formulate plans for jamming the GPS signals in times of emergency.
sduffield wrote:
Aren't the UK spending £m's towards the European Gallileo GPS system. Call me cynical but there might be a link.
There most certainly IS a link. If the US Military wanted to, they could switch off or distort the GPS signal in any part of the world they wanted to. We need to remove that dependancy and Gallileo is the way to do it. _________________ Gone fishing!
All these comparisons between the US Navstar and the European Galileo, I thought the Galileo was going to be non-military.
The military will as far as I can see, still be using the US version after the Galileo is active, so it looks as if our friends across the pond have still got us by the “short & curly’s” when it comes to defence.
The difference in the future will be when the military play wars, it shouldn't effect our GPS systems, but when it comes to "real" action, a few good well aimed missiles and we will all be back to maps - so don't throw them away yet! _________________ TomTom Go 60
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Drive-Smart GPS with Loader v1.4.16
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Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 10:58 am Post subject:
GJF wrote:
The military will as far as I can see, still be using the US version after the Galileo is active, so it looks as if our friends across the pond have still got us by the “short & curly’s” when it comes to defence.
What makes you think we will keep using the US GPS system for military use? Why would we rely on a GPS system run by a foreign military power when we could use our own one? _________________ Gone fishing!
Joined: Jun 16, 2004 Posts: 454 Location: London, Ingerlund
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:20 am Post subject:
Skippy wrote:
GJF wrote:
The military will as far as I can see, still be using the US version after the Galileo is active, so it looks as if our friends across the pond have still got us by the “short & curly’s” when it comes to defence.
What makes you think we will keep using the US GPS system for military use? Why would we rely on a GPS system run by a foreign military power when we could use our own one?
My understanding is that Galileo will be Europe only, and won't have coverage across the world. Therefore during conflicts outside of this arena, i.e. over in the Middle East, Galileo would be no use, requiring us to use the US p-code.
Plus, of course, the military doesn't like replacing any kit, so I doubt they'd throw away their perfectly good Navstar receivers.
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:31 pm Post subject:
nej wrote:
My understanding is that Galileo will be Europe only, and won't have coverage across the world.
You may be thinking of the EGNOS system which provides correction information for the GPS system and this does indeed cover Europe only.
However, Galileo is more than that. The ultimate aim is to create a completely new global positioning system. This would be under civilian control and operated to serve the needs of the parners who invested in it (EU, China, India and others) , not the needs of the US military.
The military will as far as I can see, still be using the US version after the Galileo is active, so it looks as if our friends across the pond have still got us by the “short & curly’s” when it comes to defence.
What makes you think we will keep using the US GPS system for military use? Why would we rely on a GPS system run by a foreign military power when we could use our own one?
There are lots of info and pdf files on the EU Directorate - General Energy & Transport web site HERE
The Commission today adopted a Communication to mark the end of the definition phase of GALILEO, the European satellite navigation project for civil uses. "Galileo will provide Europe with a safe and powerful tool for developing new services: positioning in transport, telemedicine, tagging of prisoners in law enforcement, or application of fertiliser in farming. The policy decisions to be taken by the Transport Council on 20 December next are vital if these prospects are to become reality." Mrs Loyola de Palacio, Vice-President of the Commission responsible for energy and transport, said.
GALILEO is Europe's satellite navigation programme. Radionavigation by satellite allows anyone with a receiver to determine their position very accurately at any time by picking up signals emitted by several satellites.
This technology, with its infinite number of applications, exists in the United States in the form of the GPS system and in Russia in the form of the GLONASS system. It is still financed and monitored by the military authorities in both countries. The extension to and quality of civil use depend, therefore, on these military authorities who, for example, can stop or degrade the signal at any time.
At present anyone can obtain a GPS receiver, at a very modest price, that will show them their position on the road, at sea or in the mountains, but with no guarantee of accuracy or continuity of service.
The GALILEO programme, as presented by the Commission and supported by the European Council, the Council and the European Parliament, will be operated and controlled by civilians. Development is proposed in four phases: definition in 2000, development and validation by 2005, deployment by 2007 and operation and use thereafter.
As we all know intentions and Laws can be changed, but the Galileo is clearly intended to be for civil use only.
If that is so what do the military use?
They will have to continue as they are now - using the US GPS system.
The Galileo is also intended to be used worldwide. _________________ TomTom Go 60
Garmin Nüvi 660, Firmware v4.90
Drive-Smart GPS with Loader v1.4.16
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Satmap Active 10, Software v1.16
Fuzion 32 HUD Bluetooth GPS receiver
This would be under civilian control and operated to serve the needs of the parners who invested in it (EU, China, India and others) , not the needs of the US military.
Not just the US military but our own and European as well, as already stated, rules can change, but this is civil use only.
If it is used for military how can they get Korea, China, India and others involved, they could be our enemy in times of conflict, then where does that leave us?
China has already shot down a satellite on a test, so they would have an easy answer to our military using a satellite that they didn't agree to. _________________ TomTom Go 60
Garmin Nüvi 660, Firmware v4.90
Drive-Smart GPS with Loader v1.4.16
HTC Advantage X7500 MS 6.1 Tchart Speed Sentry
Satmap Active 10, Software v1.16
Fuzion 32 HUD Bluetooth GPS receiver
Joined: 24/06/2003 00:22:12 Posts: 2946 Location: Escaped to the Antipodies! 36.83°S 174.75°E
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:54 pm Post subject:
GJF wrote:
Not just the US military but our own and European as well, as already stated, rules can change, but this is civil use only.
No, it's civil control, only. It's open for anyone to use.
Think about it - why would a superpower like Europe or China invest in developing something as sophisticated as Galileo and then not use it for military purposes, preferring to use a system run by a foreign military power?
The point they are making is that the GPS system will be under civilian control, but anyone can use it for whatever they want. GPS is far too important to be entrusted to the military of a single country who are self serving at best, hostile at worst.
GJF wrote:
If it is used for military how can they get Korea, China, India and others involved, they could be our enemy in times of conflict, then where does that leave us?
It leaves us in the same position as we are now having sold "weapons of mass distruction" to Iraq, Stinger missiles to Afganistan and Eurofighter Typhoons to Saudi Arabia. _________________ Gone fishing!
If you read all the EU web site info re: the Galileo, it was clearly started and was intended, to be not just run by civililians, but for civil use only.
GALILEO has been designed and developed as a non-military application, while nonetheless incorporating all the necessary protective security features. Unlike GPS, which was essentially designed for military use, GALILEO provides, for some of the services offered, a very high level of continuity required by modern business, in particular with regard to contractual responsibility
But, I have been so busy reading the original documents that i have missed a recent change, as at June 7th 2007, i now stand corrected, according toSpiegel International the whole Galileo project has run out of cash (what a surprise) and the only answer is to let the military in to save it.
It looks as if all the good intentions are going out of the window, the money to fund it will be found, but who's money and to what cost will it effect us.
Where as the Americans will only use the GPS for their own military use, (we are possibly the only other country using it for defence purposes alongside them) the Galileo will take all money offered.
It seems like Europe will eventually, sell it's (and our's) soul to the devil.
This takes us back to where we started, the millitary (looks like it could be one of many) can turn off any satellite, whenever it chooses, for military use, so don't throw the maps away yet! _________________ TomTom Go 60
Garmin Nüvi 660, Firmware v4.90
Drive-Smart GPS with Loader v1.4.16
HTC Advantage X7500 MS 6.1 Tchart Speed Sentry
Satmap Active 10, Software v1.16
Fuzion 32 HUD Bluetooth GPS receiver
This topic is rather funny. A lot of half-assed guesses and incorrect assumptions. Safe to say, from someone in the know, it is purely a trial and one post has hit it fairly and squarely on the head. I'll let you guess which one......................
Posted: Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:04 pm Post subject: gps lockdown/jamming
as a severing soldier, i have used the MIL GPS systems.
there is diff activations on our gps units that can be used, we mainly use the same sats as a civivie would but we also have the option to a encyption code fill in the gps units, we use to allow us to use the higher amount of accuracy that they deliver.
when we were in gulf war 2, they said they were going to shut down the gps sats in order to stop the iraqies from being able to move about but this never came to be, due to that most of use at the time were using civvie gps systems such as the garmin XL 12, and was reported that is was not a good idea, as there was (as normal) not enough mil gps units to go around with the encryption to allow us to manouvere about.
the whole time i was using one of these and never lost the signal, to which i am glad as is so easy to get lost out in the desert.
but now there is a new system that all UK mil vehicles will be fitted with that has both gps and radio to communicate with (bowman radio) http://www.army.mod.uk/bowman/index.htm so that this will use both the cival and mil (encrypted) sats in order to both communicate and get upto date positions of vehicles on the ground.
The main role of testing jamming is to see if this new system is prone to being jammed like on the battlefield for radios to which i have experienced and is very annoying listening to raghead FM when you are trying to transmit a radio call, so these trials are much needed to allow us to work in a good non jammed enviroment in order to allow us to get a job done in a situation that could be life threatening.
ps, sorry for spelling mistakes use of spell checker not on here _________________ TT ONE
v6.560
uk & ireland map ~ v660.119
europe map ~
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