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Tele Atlas announce high definition 3D mapping
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Eldar
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SarahDean wrote:

Complaint 1) The time writing the software to implement this would have been better spent correcting the maps.

Isn't this a stupid complaint?

AIUI, the people creating the map data are not the same people as those writing the software. Maps are supplied by one company (teleatlas), software another (igo in this case)


It isn't for two reasons - the first is that TA are spending their resources on 3D mapping instead of improving their road network mapping and the second is that we are already witnessing TomTom mapping getting gradually worse with many smaller roads disappearing from the maps, which is presumably done to reduce the size of the data. Additional 3D data at the expense of the road network data is the last thing we need.

SarahDean wrote:


FWIW, looking at the iGO software - it's not just buildings that are going to be rendered, but contours as well - fantastic! Smile


Just imagine yourself on a winding mountain road. On a 2D map you will clearly see every sharp turn ahead of you and will prepare accordingly, on a 3D map you will see nothing.
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GPS_fan
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

An ability (or lack thereof) to interpret conventional map data seems to keep appearing in this thread.

Before the advent of GPS, how did anybody get anywhere beyond their own front door?

If your GPS dies mid-route or you 'left it in your other handbag', how do you reach your destination? How do you call for help, because you don't know where you are or have a clue how to find out?!

If you're relying so heavily on building layout to find your way, just how much attention are you paying to everything else that's going on around you?

Will pedestrian crossings also be on these new maps for those people who will be relying so much on their GPS display Question
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mikealder
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

GPS_fan wrote:
Will pedestrian crossings also be on these new maps for those people who will be relying so much on their GPS display Question

I doubt it as they will not generate advertising revenue, the whole debacle of full blown 3D maps on a device intended to get you from A to B inclusive of subliminal advertising through on screen display is nothing short of ridiculous, it simply will not work - road safety will reduce the idea to the bin.

Lets face it with people driving on to train tracks etc with today’s devices, imagine what will happen when some pratt drives straight through the door of a Boots because they needed a prescription and the followed the Sat Nav - Consign the idea to the university think tank where it probably germinated from - real world situations in a vehicle require concentration ON THE ROAD AHEAD not some stupid display indicating the nearest McD take away or Boots chemist.

I will probably end up eating these words over time, but for now the hardware simply cannot work with this proposal and will require a significant step change to realise full potential (advertising) - the suppliers will expect us to pay for the privilege of such a system, if they can give it away every credit, but I bet they don't.

Not for me, I like the 2D map using the 3D perspective, additional detail such as buildings will, without a doubt be a cumbersome distraction, if the big key players follow this route I can only pray that Mapopolis re-enter the market with a true 2D map package that works - eye candy is not what I expect from a nav unit, I hear you say the option would be their to switch off the Building view, I am very sceptical this would actually happen due to the lost earning potential of selling advertising space on the display - Mike
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GPS_fan
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

mikealder wrote:
Not for me, I like the 2D map using the 3D perspective


I thought that I was in a minority of one using 2D!

I use the GPS strictly in 2D mode, without any thought of 3D. My experience from a young boy has been with a map and compass - and Ordnance Survey maps and road atlases only come in 2D format, that's what I'm used to.

People forget that GPS is to be used as a tool and are not necessarily to be obeyed to the letter.
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robertn
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 9:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Currently the Sat Nav market is only just poking it's head above the radar of various safety authorities. It is being questioned from a safety perspective as we speak by transport safety authorities around the world.
Any though of adding distractions to the existing systems will likely result in sanctions against drivers using them. Like all in car systems, these need to be keep as simple and precise as possible. Thank goodness for Cell Phones - they are the current issue for today, but once that debate is resolved, Sat Navs are next.

For some people a 2D or 3D Perspective map is as clear as day. For others it's gobbledegook, and they need more time to interpet it. It would be unfortunate for the first group to have to take on messed up psudeo real world pictures, and then loose SatNav altogether.

The ideas comeing out are just that at this time. It is where they are going, but I hope safety (legislation) will override the manufacturers desire for "bling" in the end. I hope (I am an optimist) that this technology will lead to easier to use, more reliable, safer systems.
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SarahDean
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PostPosted: Sun May 13, 2007 11:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
If, as many of us complain, the maps are out of date - it's even less likely that buildings will be updated, hence your argument
Quote:
if the user's on the right road, a quick glance at the display will suffice to compare it with what can be seen on the road
falls down.

Since it's still early days I'd say it's still a bit premature to make assumptions about the accuracy of maps which (AFAIK) still aren't publicly available, and which should, almost by definition, be more newer and accurate than current ones!

Your point about buildings being knocked down, and new ones being put up though is pretty valid though; the burden of keeping maps with buildings on them up to date would certainly require more regular updates than are needed atm.

3D contours are less likely to suffer from that problem ;)

Quote:
If people can't interpret map data then they probably can't interpret the highway code either and that's why there are so many bad drivers about!!

(Highway code?) That's not something I can comment on

Just because someone can't read a map though, doesn't automatically mean they're necessarily a bad driver!

Quote:
Some of us have more than 10 years' experience and have a fairly good idea of what we're talking about.

For all we know, you might be the girl in Wales who tried driving down the railway line and blamed her sat nav.

Since I'm in Florida, and have never been to wales, that's a little unlikely Smile

btw, is that some kind of urban myth about GPS in the UK? Surely roads don't look that much like rail tracks over there?
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GPS_fan
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 2:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

SarahDean wrote:
Highway code?


The Highway Code is like the rule book for driving in the UK, which describes all the road signs and basically tells you how you should drive:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk

The Highway Code may be used in evidence in any court proceedings under Traffic Acts to establish liability.

Quote:
Since I'm in Florida


Isn't Florida in that country out west across a pond, where a Winnebago driver sets his vehicle to 'cruise control', goes into the back to make a coffee and crashes but then sues Winnebago because he mistook 'cruise control' for 'autopilot' and he wins the case??

Remember also that road layouts and driving practices vary from country to country. Whilst most countries in Europe and other countries contain rooundabouts, people in the US will never have seen such a thing:
http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/17.htm#160


Quote:
Sarah Dean
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Personal site: http://www.SDean12.org/

For information on SecureTrayUtil and On-The-Fly Encryption (OTFE) systems (including transparent encryption for PDAs), see the URLs above


btw, is advertising in signatures not against forum rules?
http://www.pocketgpsworld.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=22606
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mikealder
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PostPosted: Mon May 14, 2007 6:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Advertising something for sale with a commercial stance is against the rules, but Sarah's site is offering free software to anyone that wants it, she could of course update her profile and add a web page link button - Mike
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Toneloc427
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PostPosted: Tue May 15, 2007 8:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Despite SarahDean's presumed lack of experience (just because she's new to posting at this forum doesn't mean she doesn't know what she's talking about - I've been using satnav for years and regularly perused these posts for almost a year before bothering to post something), she brings up an excellent point that the rest of you seem to have missed: For the 3D buildings to have been ingested from the mapping van (remember the big orange vans from the CeBIT coverage?) video footage, the base map data must have been updated first. Presumably, the cities with 3D buildings should be some of the most accurate, up-to-date maps available anywhere. Unfortunately, that won't be verifiable for several more months.

Another point to consider is this: Although this may be a case of putting the cart before the horse from a marketing standpoint, I would guess that the target audience for these features, and thus the driving force for their availability, is not the personal satnav market, but the OEM in-dash systems and internet-based companies like Google and MapQuest.

SarahDean: Sorry for the less-than-heartwarming welcome. I'm not sure what GPS_fan had for breakfast; these guys are usually extremely helpful and tolerant of conflicting views.
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GPS_fan
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Will these High Definition maps need a new generation of High Definition GPS units (as with High Definition TV), because the definition/resolution of the majority of current LCD screens may not be sufficiently great to display high definition maps
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 7:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Toneloc427 wrote:
I'm not sure what GPS_fan had for breakfast; these guys are usually extremely helpful and tolerant of conflicting views.


I'm not quite sure why I get singled out for expressing an opinion (which appears to tie in with the majority in this particular thread!!), especially when I've had worse remarks aimed at me without comment from others.

Doiing a good job here is like wetting your pamts in a dark suit - it gives you a warm feeling, but nobody notices.

"If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something" Murphy's Law

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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GPS_fan wrote:
I'm not quite sure why I get singled out for expressing an opinion (which appears to tie in with the majority in this particular thread!!), especially when I've had worse remarks aimed at me without comment from others.


Don't worry eddie, this always happens on forums. Because folks can't refer to normal human responces like facial expressions, we can only resort to words. HOWEVER SOME PEOple Find iT harD to exPRess thEmselVes in tHis waY. (use emoticons, it helps) Exclamation Confused Question

"Missunderstanding turns to conflict." Mostdom 2007

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GPS_fan
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 10:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

mostdom wrote:
use emoticons, it helps


I often use emoticons, but the danger is that the post looks more like a Walt Disney production than anything meaningful. Rolling Eyes
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Phillies30
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:30 pm    Post subject: What a stupid idea...NOT Reply with quote

NickG I think your view is a little antiquated. You sound just a little cynical. Would you favour the traditional paper based maps over a satellite navigation system? I doubt it! This is progression, just like GPS navigation is a progression over the Road Atlas. If companies were to stand still then how do you improve on the status quo? You don't. Companies introducing new technology is all part of this path of progression. I do not think Tele Atlas is the only company doing this. I recall Navteq announced something similar earlier this year. Do you not think consumers want this? DO you not think that handset manufacturers and operators alike constantly survey their customers about what new applications they want to see on their handset? Of course they do. 3D mapping is a great initiative. I agree that navigating solely in 3D could be confusing, but surely there are benefits in being able to recognise buildings en route? I for one often give directions based on buildings: "There is a big grey building just before my junction", "Turn left at the waterworks" for example. Many people navigate by visual recognition and not necessarily by road name alone. This initiative is a step in the right direction, and that direction is progression.

I have a Tele Atlas powered device that has the most up to date UK map uploaded onto it - at least I think it does - and it is good. There are very few inaccuracies. Yes there are anomalies, but who holds the responsibility for that. Device manufacturers may not necessarily purchase the most recent maps; users have to take some responsibility for ensuring they have the most up to date data to the point about reporting inaccuracies use the mapinsight facility. There is no escaping the fact that roads change constantly and there is no escaping the fact that those changes can not be immediately accommodated for.

I am not a Tele Atlas aficionado. But I am a GPS fan and anything the companies do that is a step in the right direction towards a better end user experience, I am in favour. One last point, ever been to Japan or Korea? Well if you want to see 3d navigation working and how it works then I suggest you take a visit.


NickG wrote:
What a stupid idea. Have they actually asked their users if they would rather have big 3D buildings on their maps in preference to spending that same time and money fixing the 2D maps which contain millions of errors, some reported several years ago? I know they've done a survey and users have asked for this, but surely most users would rather they fix the 2D maps first rather than spend time on 3D buildings, which are of little use for road navigation.

The buildings will get in the way and prevent you from seeing where the turns actually are, so as the original post says, this is probably more useful for 'walking' type GPS systems than for example, a TomTom.

Why not add something USEFUL to the data like the REAL (measured) average speeds for each road at various times of day instead of assuming every single A road in the world has an average speed of x MPH at any time of day. This would make routing MUCH more accurate. This would make it not route you past two primary schools at 8:45am when a road running parallel to it that's 2% longer goes to the same place but with no traffic! If they did a deal with (eg) TomTom, it could collect and anonymously upload this data whenever you sync. Millions of sensors already installed!

Fundamentally, you shouldn't even be LOOKING at your sat nav while driving! I think the map should be as basic as possible so you need to look at it for the smallest time possible for you to work out which way you should be going at the junction. Adding more eye candy to the map will only make using sat-nav more dangerous.
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PostPosted: Wed May 16, 2007 1:43 pm    Post subject: Re: What a stupid idea...NOT Reply with quote

Phillies30 wrote:
But I am a GPS fan


For the benefit of my 'image', I would just like to make it clear that there is absolutely no link between Phillies30 and myself. I had nothing to do with this post and the phrase is not a play on my username - at least not by me.

Perhaps "I am a fan of GPS" could have been more appropriate.
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