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Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 1:02 am Post subject: TomTom activation denied after PDA swap support says too bad
I am seriously off at Tom Tom, I bought my tom tom software a year ago, I also work for a tech company, and I constantly switch phones to showcase mobility solutions to customers, currently I am running on a HTC Wizard running CrossBow OS, when I switched to my latest phone (last month) Tom Tom Maps would not activate. So I contacted Tom Tom support through E-Mail. At this point I am not upset at all with TomTom protecting their software and asking people to E-Mail when they have installed it more than 2 times is reasonable. But I am now a month later and still do not have a resolution.
First it took 10 days for them to tell me I needed my reciept for the original software purchase!?!?! If I did not have it there was nothing that they were willing to do PERIOD, Despite the fact that I registered, despite the fact that my registration information has never changed including my emial, home address, phone number etc. And to make matters worse the only reason I even got that much information was because after waiting 10 days for a response from email I finally called and waited on hold for over 2.5 hours.
Then I was lucky and found the reciept and scanned it and added it to my support request in email. 10 more days go by and I call again. 2 more hours on hold. Now I need a reciept for my device change?!?! WTF!!!! what business is it of theirs which device I choose to install this onam I not allowed to re-use my software on any device I choose so long as it is not on 2 at the same time? Sorry that is the policy and there is "Nothing they can do about it" If you do not have the reciept then we cannot provide you with another activation code. I had my device replaced under warranty cause it broke, T-Mobile does not give you a reciept for a warranty exchange. I get an email from T-Mobile telling me that and I send that to Tom Tom. by the time I got to the second call I asked to speak to a manager, I was refused and told "This is our policy and without the device exchange reciept there is no escallation at all", so I get the documentation from T-Mobile added to the case hoping that I get some sort of response sometime soon.
I STILL HAVE NOT HEAD BACK 10 Days LATER!!!! And the worst part of all of this, I plan on upgrading my phone in another 3 months since that is when I will be eligable to get a new one!!!
I will update this when I get an answer but there are others experiencing the same thing please share your stories.
I believe the fair use doctrine enables you to legally install TomTom as you please on whatever device you own. You should be able to buy 100 portable devices and install your single copy of TomTom on all of them - as long as you don't redistribute them. IMO, there is no criminal component to that (only civil, if anything).
However, I don't believe the fair use doctrine has enough muscle to force TomTom to help you to do that. But that's what cracks are for.
As for the poor tech support, I've found that calling them daily and leaving a message to return your call works. You might have to call four or five times, but they eventually return the call. Once you get them on the phone, they give better answers than they do in email - but still the answers aren't that great. I did catch them lying to me to get me off the phone when I was accusing them of forcing Americans to acknowledge the legal notice every bootup, while Europeans only have to acknowledge it once after installing.
Joined: Dec 28, 2005 Posts: 2003 Location: Antrobus, Cheshire
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 3:38 pm Post subject:
Copyright law is very complex esp when it comes to software.
When you buy and install TomTom (and a whole load of other apps from vendors) you agree to install it on one system for your personal use. (Nobody ever reads the splash screens they agree to!) Other vendors allow you multiple copies for personal use - it varies.
Unfortunately this becomes an additional cost to system upgrades.
However, and I don't know if this still applies, with TT3 and TT5 they allowed you a change of device after some period of installation on the first system (I believe it was 6 months) I took advantage of this when upgrading from my old iPaq system. Keep pestering them.
Joined: Jan 14, 2005 Posts: 19638 Location: Blackpool , Lancs
Posted: Thu Feb 08, 2007 5:54 pm Post subject:
philpugh wrote:
However, and I don't know if this still applies, with TT3 and TT5 they allowed you a change of device after some period of installation on the first system (I believe it was 6 months)
You can use the activation a second time after seven days, subsequent activations must then only be performed every six months, TomTom might allow exceptions to these rules if evidence is provided of a broken / repaired/ replaced device (fax of repair bill etc) - Mike
A lot of people are under the mistaken belief that they 'own' the software. This is not true. You have purchased a licence to use it only.
When a user either purchases software or freely downloads software from the Internet, the user is not buying the ownership rights to the software but a license to use the software according to the licensing agreement, or EULA (for end user licensing agreement). The EULA is a legal agreement between the two parties and is legally actionable if either party violates the terms of the agreement. While no two EULAs are exactly the same, a typical EULA, whether it comes in the boxed software from your local computer store or attached to an Internet download of an application, states that the person or organization licensing the software is granted permission to use the software and almost nothing else. This ensures that the software cannot be copied and sold by anyone, nor can the fundamental programming of the software be changed to alter the performance of the application. The licensing agreement also protects the end user from any legal liabilities incurred by the owner of the software’s copyright. Typically, software that can be used by both individuals and organizations have different licensing agreements that cover different issues (e.g., the EULA for software being distributed to an enterprise will specify how many individual workstations the software can be deployed on).
So the fact that TomTom have placed restrictions on how many times you may install or change equipment is actually within their rights as 'Owners' of the software. _________________ Mystery
O2 XDA Orbit 2
TTN6.030
The EULA is a legal agreement between the two parties and is legally actionable if either party violates the terms of the agreement.
It's legally actionable in a civil court, not in a criminal court. End users need not fear criminal prosecution in pursuit of their fair use rights.
And as a practical matter, an end user who moves TTN to an upgraded Palm can expect TomTom not to sue them. Why? Because even if TomTom can make a EULA case, such a case is not economically sound, even if they can further demonstrate actual damages. The reward wouldn't justify the risks involved.
Mystery wrote:
So the fact that TomTom have placed restrictions on how many times you may install or change equipment is actually within their rights as 'Owners' of the software.
And it is within the buyers legal right to use their software, even if not used as TomTom has intended. If TomTom intends for the user to keep the software on the first device it's installed, and not the upgrades, this intent boils down to poor advice which can be ignored. Sure TomTom has a right to yank the warranty and tech support at that point, but by the time the user upgrades the warranty and support is likely gone anyway (or otherwise not very useful to receive on an obsolete device).
Furthermore, the OP would be doing the consumers a disservice if he bought another license for the upgraded device, and sponsored the sort of abusive policy that undermines the real purpose of copyright and exploits the consumer.
Joined: Dec 28, 2005 Posts: 2003 Location: Antrobus, Cheshire
Posted: Tue Feb 13, 2007 11:25 pm Post subject:
The water is muddier than that.
TomTom themselves have to pay royalty fees to the mapping provider - this is why we have to pay for new maps - they have to cover their costs (and make a profit to continue development and support). I think I am right in saying that TomTom have never charged just for an application upgrade.
TT5.0 to TT5.21 was/is free.
TT5.x to TT6.01 is free - but you do have to pay for the new maps.
You can move your TT application to another device - it's allowed by TomTom for upto a week after installation and every 6 months afterwards - you just have to get a new unlock code from their site. This would leave you able to run on both devices - but any new maps you download will only be capable of being unlocked on the later device I believe; or if installing on the original device after 6 months would cause the older device to revert to being the 'new' device. (Confused yet - I am :D ).
Of course you are not able to sell any of the devices with TT installed on them - this is a direct breach of the EULA. The person you sold it to would be upset also; they would be unable to upgrade it themselves. As to whether or not TT would persue any case is up to them - but would you want to be on the end of a law suit? The cost of persuing may (or not) be an issue to TomTom. It would certainly be an issue to the majority of individuals.
If you don't like the regulations - buy a solution from someone with EULAs you agree with. _________________ Phil
Joined: Nov 29, 2004 Posts: 303 Location: West Sussex
Posted: Wed Feb 14, 2007 1:22 pm Post subject:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that I can't/shouldn't sell my phone on , eg, Ebay with a load of software on it that I don't want, including TT. ? I would describe it as the phone is £x, complete with an assortment of free software for which I can't vouch whether they all work or not, for use at your own risk...or something along those lines ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you saying that I can't/shouldn't sell my phone on , eg, Ebay with a load of software on it that I don't want, including TT. ? I would describe it as the phone is £x, complete with an assortment of free software for which I can't vouch whether they all work or not, for use at your own risk...or something along those lines ?
I see nothing wrong with selling your phone fully loaded, as long as the licenses for all the installed software are transferable. If the licenses are transferable, then you can even include all the software discs and documentation that you got with it, and make the licenses an official part of the deal. After transferring all the licenses, then you no longer have the licenses for your own use.
TomTom themselves have to pay royalty fees to the mapping provider - this is why we have to pay for new maps - they have to cover their costs (and make a profit to continue development and support). I think I am right in saying that TomTom have never charged just for an application upgrade.
I'm not sure where you're coming from here. I don't think anyone disputed the map upgrade policies. Though I will say that the deal between TomTom and Tele Atlas is entirely independant of the consumer. The consumer is not a party to that contract and is under no obligation.
philpugh wrote:
You can move your TT application to another device - it's allowed by TomTom for upto a week after installation and every 6 months afterwards - you just have to get a new unlock code from their site. This would leave you able to run on both devices - but any new maps you download will only be capable of being unlocked on the later device I believe; or if installing on the original device after 6 months would cause the older device to revert to being the 'new' device. (Confused yet - I am :D ).
It is somewhat reasonable that TomTom has some tolerance for device upgrades. But not entirely reasonable because TomTom has no right to dictate how often a user upgrades their hardware device. In the case of the OP, the 6 month waiting period is inadequite. It's also unreasonable that TomTom would not support map upgrades on multiple devices for users who have multiple PDAs, assuming your comment is correct on how TomTom handles that. But thanks to the fair use doctrine, the OP can upgrade every day if he wants, and continue to use the TT and any map he buys on the old hardware as well as the new -- he just won't have TomTom's help on it.
philpugh wrote:
Of course you are not able to sell any of the devices with TT installed on them - this is a direct breach of the EULA. The person you sold it to would be upset also; they would be unable to upgrade it themselves. As to whether or not TT would persue any case is up to them - but would you want to be on the end of a law suit? The cost of persuing may (or not) be an issue to TomTom. It would certainly be an issue to the majority of individuals.
If you don't like the regulations - buy a solution from someone with EULAs you agree with.
Are you certain that the TomTom EULA prohibits license transfers?
Joined: Dec 28, 2005 Posts: 2003 Location: Antrobus, Cheshire
Posted: Fri Feb 16, 2007 8:07 pm Post subject:
Sorry - a bit of a brusque reply - had to logoff.
I would expect that TomTom would need to give permission in writing to you to move the license for their application and maps to another user (with or without the selling of the device on which it runs).
Regarding the mapping - I was simply making a point about why TomTom have to protect their investment.
I have changed my PDA 4 times since the original version of TomTom and I have never had any issues migrating devices. But I have never sold the devices on with any applications installed on them - hard reset and then sell.
I agree no-one has the right to determine when or how often you change your device - but that has nothing to do with your rights to move all the applications for which you have licenses to run on your hardware (but do not own the product) without the expressed permission of the lawful owners. You have to take the cost (if any) of transferring these licences to your new machine into account.
It is, as I already stated, a very complex arena. I worked in the IT industry (for a major manufacturer) for 20+ years and licensing was a major issue then - just as it is now. Software companies (like TomTom) have to protect their products rigourously - which will mean resorting to the courts - to protect their property. If it was ever deemed that it was 'public domain' by tacitly allowing free movement of the licenses between third parties then they have effectively lost control. _________________ Phil
I would expect that TomTom would need to give permission in writing to you to move the license for their application and maps to another user (with or without the selling of the device on which it runs).
That would only be true if TomTom had written a prohibitory clause into the EULA, which goes back to the original question of whether the TT EULA prohibits transfer of licenses. Some companies will write such a prohibition into the EULA, and make an exception for written consent. In the absense of that clause, the OP has just as much right to sell his copy of TomTom as CompUSA (or whatever retailer who also doesn't have written consent) had to sell it to him.
philpugh wrote:
Regarding the mapping - I was simply making a point about why TomTom have to protect their investment.
It's understood that copyright holders will use the EULA and intellectual property laws to leverage the maximum profit possible (after all, it's their responsibility to the shareholders to do so), and they don't need any justification to do it, simply because they can.
philpugh wrote:
I have changed my PDA 4 times since the original version of TomTom and I have never had any issues migrating devices. But I have never sold the devices on with any applications installed on them - hard reset and then sell.
I would agree that hard resetting is the way to go - as it ensures no personal data gets disclosed. You can still charge more for it as a value added PDA (software included), and it would make sense if you no longer need the software, or you intend to buy a newer version of the software anyway.
philpugh wrote:
I agree no-one has the right to determine when or how often you change your device - but that has nothing to do with your rights to move all the applications for which you have licenses to run on your hardware (but do not own the product) without the expressed permission of the lawful owners. You have to take the cost (if any) of transferring these licences to your new machine into account.
Pay nothing extra. Enjoy your fair use rights to transfer your software to the new hardware without consent from the copyright holders. It makes no sense to unnecessarily buy the same product multiple times over - unless you simply want to make a donation to the creators.
philpugh wrote:
Software companies (like TomTom) have to protect their products rigourously - which will mean resorting to the courts - to protect their property.
It's the rights of the consumers that need protection. You can trust companies to protect their rights with their well paid attorneys and copyright laws that have stopped working for the consumer, and have made the means by which to benefit consumers into the ends. The fair use doctrine is only a mediocre solution to the problem, and consumers who don't exploit it for all it's worth are cheating themselves out of what little benefit they have. As for what the "means" and "ends" are, Sandra Day O'Connor expresses it well:
"The primary objective of copyright is not to reward the labor of authors, but to promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts." "To this end, copyright assures authors the right to their original expression, but encourages others to build freely upon the ideas and information conveyed by a work. This result is neither unfair nor unfortunate. It is the means by which copyright advances the progress of science and art."
-- US Supreme Court Justice Sandra Day O'Connor
Richard Stallman explains it even better if you hear any of his talks. The intent of copyright is not to reward the copyright holders. Rewarding the creators is only a means to accomplish the real goal: to provide the community with creative works. Copyright (lately) has served as a source of hinderance to that goal.
Joined: Dec 28, 2005 Posts: 2003 Location: Antrobus, Cheshire
Posted: Tue Feb 20, 2007 2:55 pm Post subject:
We could argue this indefinitely :D
However the TT s/w EULA prohibits the original query..
Quote:
This EULA grants a license (“License”) that permits you to use the Software, provided that Software that is combined with a hardware device is only combined with one hardware device at any time. This License is non-exclusive and non-transferable.
Which doesn't leave any room for for getting agreement in writing as far as I can see.
The principle is sound - it's just that people don't seem to relate a bit of s/w which is easily transportable etc as having any financial worth to any company. Or they don't like the fact that all they get for their not-inconsiderable money is a few files. What they are actually buying - and it states this quite clearly when you do the install - is nothing more than permission from the owner of the s/w to run it on their hardware. If they don't like the Ts&Cs they can always go elswhere - but will probably find very similar licensing.
There is not much in the hardware world that is comparable - the closest I can come up with is the fact that I have two Minolta format cameras and I have a good telephoto lens. I can use the lens on either camera but not at the same time. To do this would be like expecting to have Minolta give me a second lens. (I did say it was not a good parallel).
Given time and better network connectivity I could forsee that TT (and others) would allow you to swap between h/w when you want and have a mechanism for charging you for this privilege and/or disabling the s/w on the other hardware.
4) CONFIDENTIALITY: You acknowledge and agree that the Software was developed at considerable time and expense by TomTom and is confidential to and a trade secret of TomTom and/or third parties. You agree to maintain the Software in strict confidence and not to disclose or provide access thereto to any person.
So selling your hardware with TT installed is illegal (as it is to sell your PC with Windows installed - unless you are registered with Microsoft as an OEM/distributor) _________________ Phil
It's even more complex - it's is arguable that the terms in the small print of the TT contract is unfair although it would take legal action to prove this.
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off at Tom Tom, I bought my tom tom software a year ago, I also work for a tech company, and I constantly switch phones to showcase mobility solutions to customers, currently I am running on a HTC Wizard running CrossBow OS, when I switched to my latest phone (last month) Tom Tom Maps would not activate. So I contacted Tom Tom support through E-Mail. At this point I am not upset at all with TomTom protecting their software and asking people to E-Mail when they have installed it more than 2 times is reasonable. But I am now a month later and still do not have a resolution.
