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Ofcom says GPS Repeaters are ilegal in the UK
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MikeB
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:53 am    Post subject: Ofcom says GPS Repeaters are ilegal in the UK Reply with quote

Ofcom have an article on their website stating that the use of a GPS repeater is no legal in the UK. A GPS repeater is classed as a radio transmission device and as such is subject to the Radio and Telecommunications Regulations. This effectively means that a license is required to operate radio transmitters in the UK and Ofcom have not issued any such licenses.

The content of the article from the Ofcom site is:
Quote:
GPS or GNSS signal repeaters
GPS repeaters are active devices designed to re-transmit Global Positioning (GPS) or other Radionavigation Satellite system (RNSS) signals. These can be described as simple re-broadcast systems, whereby the GPS (RNSS) signals is received, amplified and re-transmitted on the same frequency into an area where there are no GPS (RNSS) signals, thereby allowing GPS (RNSS) receivers to derive a position. This type of apparatus is subject to the provisions of the Radio and Telecommunications Terminal Equipment Regulations 2000 SI 730 as amended (R&TTE Regulations). See Related Items for additional information.

With certain exceptions, radio apparatus must comply with the provisions the R&TTE Regulations. It is a criminal offence to place non-compliant apparatus on the market. It is one of Ofcom’s responsibilities to enforce this legislation.

In addition under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949 a licence is required to operate radio transmitting equipment in the UK. However Ofcom may provide in legislation that users of particular categories of apparatus are exempt from licensing. To date Ofcom has not licensed use of GPS repeaters and they are not exempt from licensing.

Ofcom has concluded that the uncontrolled operation of this type of apparatus presents a risk of interference to a number of critical services. Ofcom is currently working to establish the potential (if any) for authorising these GPS repeater type of apparatus and any relevant conditions of use. However currently, the use of this radio apparatus is not licensed or licence exempt and is therefore likely to constitute an offence under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949.

Any person who places GPS repeater type of apparatus on the market or uses it in the UK is likely to be committing an offence.

Clarification on use of GPS Receivers
A licence exemption exists for receive-only equipment. Ofcom is aware that the MOD and emergency services use GPS receivers extensively to assist in vehicle and personnel location-based information services. GPS repeaters are not used for this purpose but some controlled trials to investigate their potential use by the emergency services have occurred where instances of interference were observed.

Currently some mobile phones are embedded with GPS receivers. The operation of a GPS receiver at locations deep inside buildings where there is no GPS (RNSS) signal coverage at all would require some equipment to be installed in the building. Various techniques to achieve a location-based information service inside buildings are being investigated by industry, not necessarily based on the use of technology such as GPS repeaters.

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neil01
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must be missing something here, because if I understand this correctly, I wonder what the benefit of a repeater is. After all, wouldn't the position being reported still be the location of the initial receiver, so it could't be used to pinpoint your position.

If it is simply to allow a signal to be transmitted to a display unit, can't this be fulfilled using current (legal) technology such as wired, bluetooth, or wifi?

Or if it is simply to get a signal behind athermic windscreens, I can sort of see a perverted logic - but surely the sensible solution would be to develop (or remain with) a windscreen which allowed the signals through.
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JockTamsonsBairn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:50 am    Post subject: Re: Ofcom says GPS Repeaters are ilegal in the UK Reply with quote

MikeB wrote:
Ofcom have an article on their website stating that the use of a GPS repeater is not legal in the UK.
Mike,

Just to clarify, a repeater that plugs into the cigarette lighter and "re-broadcasts" the GPS signal (sometimes called re-radiator?) into the car, so that the GPS receiver could pick up a signal using its inbuilt patch antena would be illegal, but an external antenna, that had a cable running from a roof mount, plugged into the GPS, would not Question
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MikeB
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 10:56 am    Post subject: Re: Ofcom says GPS Repeaters are ilegal in the UK Reply with quote

BGF wrote:
Just to clarify, a repeater that plugs into the cigarette lighter and "re-broadcasts" the GPS signal (sometimes called re-radiator?) into the car, so that the GPS receiver could pick up a signal using its inbuilt patch antena would be illegal, but an external antenna, that had a cable running from a roof mount, plugged into the GPS, would not Question

That is indeed correct. It is the broadcasting that is the issue here. Anything that receives a signal without re-transmitting it is obviously OK.
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NickG
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hate to ask a silly question, but what actually is a GPS repeater and what is the normal purpose of them? Are there any that are currently commercially available?

If a GPS signal can't be received in the car because of a coated windscreen then a repeater inside the car can't get a signal either. The only solution to this I can see is an external aerial for the GPS, or a bluetooth GPS built into the car which has it's aerial on the outside. Surely you can't make something that re-radiates 12 channels of GPS radio into the car?
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neil01
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 11:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Before someone asks, the re-broadcasting of the raw GPS signal (illegal) is not the same as transmitting the processed data over a bluetooth connection, which is just as legal as transmitting any other data over the connection.
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JockTamsonsBairn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

NickG wrote:
Hate to ask a silly question, but what actually is a GPS repeater and what is the normal purpose of them? Are there any that are currently commercially available?

If a GPS signal can't be received in the car because of a coated windscreen then a repeater inside the car can't get a signal either. The only solution to this I can see is an external aerial for the GPS, or a bluetooth GPS built into the car which has it's aerial on the outside. Surely you can't make something that re-radiates 12 channels of GPS radio into the car?


http://www.maps-gps-info.com/gp-ant.html wrote:
Reradiating

A reradiating antenna system consists of two antennas. The receiving antenna is placed outside the structure or vehicle and the transmitting, or "reradiating," antenna is placed near the GPS receiver. The two are connected by a coaxial cable and the system is powered by either 12 volt vehicle supply or an AC adaptor. A reradiating antenna is necessary if your GPS does not have an external antenna jack.

For certain applications reradiating systems are made that have a range of up to 30 meters. This means that you can carry your GPS receiver around with you and have it function properly if you're within 30 meters of the reradiating antenna. Some applications are laboratories, offices, and various modes of transportation such as trucks, trains, ships, and buses.
http://www.prairie.mb.ca/images/wide_rerad.jpg wrote:

If you have a look here under "ReRadiating Antennas" you'll see that some are designed for in-car use and some are for in-building use.
Also have a look here for a review
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neil01
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 12:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Judging by the picture, it looks very much like a (very untidy) solution looking for a problem. There are much tidier (and cheaper?) solutions available.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neil01 wrote:
Judging by the picture, it looks very much like a (very untidy) solution looking for a problem. There are much tidier (and cheaper?) solutions available.
For a receiver that has no socket for an external antenna, what else would you suggest?
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 1:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BGF wrote:
...For a receiver that has no socket for an external antenna, what else would you suggest?


Don't buy it in the first place - I didn't. Although admittedly, most of the solutions I considered had either a separate reciever which could be placed in an appropriate position, or a socket to accept a wired one.

I know that this may sound harsh, but if you have one already, unfortunately sometimes you just have to accept that it isn't up to the job, and replace it with something which is. In the long run, spending time and money making something work for what may only be a limited time, may not be cost effective.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 2:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neil01 wrote:
Don't buy it in the first place - I didn't..
Me too/neither!
neil01 wrote:
I know that this may sound harsh
Argumentative rather than harsh ( Laughing ), bearing in mind that I was trying to explain what a re-radiating antenna was, rather than advocate the use of one Laughing
neil01 wrote:
but if you have one already, unfortunately sometimes you just have to accept that it isn't up to the job, and replace it with something which is. In the long run, spending time and money making something work for what may only be a limited time, may not be cost effective.
Accepted Exclamation
But, if you already have a working solution and the only thing that changes is that your new car has an athermic windscreen, then it MAY be worth a try. The Holux GPSlim236 Wireless GPS Receiver, which seems to be popular, costs, if I remember correctly, about £69.98 plus delivery and the Holux GPSlim236 External Antenna £14.99 plus delivery (although I thought SirfIII receivers wouldn't need external antennas?), so we're talking about £70 or £85 versus approx £21.62 plus delivery (from US for the Semsons one mentioned in the review I quoted, but others may still be available from the UK).
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BGF wrote:
neil01 wrote:
I know that this may sound harsh
Argumentative rather than harsh ( Laughing ), bearing in mind that I was trying to explain what a re-radiating antenna was, rather than advocate the use of one...


It wasn't intended as argumentative, or aimed personally at you either. I apologise if it seemed to be.

I suppose, that when it comes down to it, I hate the plethera of wires and the inconvenience of removing and re-fitting them everytime you leave and go back to the car (for security reasons) and would rather put the money (probably £25 - £30 when postage is taken into account) towards a solution which works without such hassle. After all, I presume that if presented with such a problem, you would try to ensure that any replacement didn't suffer in the same way.

Unless your equipment is quite new, it might even be just the excuse you need to upgrade.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
But, if you already have a working solution and the only thing that changes is that your new car has an athermic windscreen, then it MAY be worth a try. The Holux GPSlim236 Wireless GPS Receiver, which seems to be popular, costs, if I remember correctly, about £69.98 plus delivery and the Holux GPSlim236 External Antenna £14.99 plus delivery


But of course - that doesn't solve the problem as the vast majority of PND devices can't use an external bluetooth GPS as their datasource for positional information. That goes for all current TomToms, Navmans etc (apart from versions that run on the PDA - but this scenario is becoming ever less popular as PND devices become cheaper and less messy than PDA setups). Most of them can only use their own built in receivers and therefore would require a repeater and not a bluetooth GPS.
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JockTamsonsBairn
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

neil01 wrote:
It wasn't intended as argumentative, or aimed personally at you either. I apologise if it seemed to be.
Don't worry, I didn't take it personally :D
neil01 wrote:
I suppose, that when it comes down to it, I hate the plethera of wires and the inconvenience of removing and re-fitting them everytime you leave and go back to the car (for security reasons)
Amen to that Exclamation
neil01 wrote:
would rather put the money (probably £25 - £30 when postage is taken into account) towards a solution which works without such hassle. After all, I presume that if presented with such a problem, you would try to ensure that any replacement didn't suffer in the same way.

Unless your equipment is quite new, it might even be just the excuse you need to upgrade.
Yeah, I'm trying to decide whether to go for a TomTom n10 or to go for a Brodit Mount for my PDA & GPSlim236 hidden in the boot.
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 10, 2006 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

BGF wrote:
Yeah, I'm trying to decide whether to go for a TomTom n10 or to go for a Brodit Mount for my PDA & GPSlim236 hidden in the boot.


I ditched my PDA/BTGPS/Windscreen mount and bought a Tomtom One and have been VERY happy with it.

It's SO MUCH easier to set up that I end up using it much more often. There's no hassle of having to wait for the PDA to boot (a TT One starts in about 4 seconds) and then launching the TT software. It doesn't lose all it's data if you leave it in the glovebox too long. You don't have to have a seperate Bluetooth GPS to keep charged or have cables for.

I'd seriously consider getting a TomTom if I were you rather than using a PDA.

I've now upgraded to a TomTom 910 and I'm even happier (except the mount on the 910 isn't as easy to use as the TomTom One mount).
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