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ukpostcodes - end of the line
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barleymo
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Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: OS Copyright Reply with quote

To comment on Howardr's post. A friend of mine who used to work for OS told me that they put deliberate mistakes in their products to enable them to identify their data. The case with the AA highlighted this, they were able to identify their maps because of deliberate mistakes they put in. I suspect that they have done the same with their Post Codes db. Even though it is stripped down for our use, there is probably a phoney post code that they put in for purposes of identifying their data.

howardr wrote:
My 2p worth

In my opinion, whilst the post office are responsible for the implementation and upkeep of postcodes, they could hardly complain about the widespread use of them as they actually make letter sorting easier for THEM - I didn't see a reduction in the postal charges because of this though, did you?

Secondly, the only claim I can imagine that OS have to the the Long/Lat co-ordinates of postcodes is if THEY actually compiled the data. This means that it belongs to them. Given the 'open' environment that the internet (and particularly this site) provides, it is quite possible that we all compiled this file between us. Streetmap.co.uk provides these co-ordinates for any postcode you key into their converter. The OS could not realistically PROVE that the data we all use was theirs - we may have compiled it ourselves!

(see you in court)
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MarkHewitt
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 3:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Where did digitools and POISoft get their data from in the first place?
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Oldboy
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 09, 2005 7:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MarkHewitt wrote:
Where did digitools and POISoft get their data from in the first place?


Digitools got the bulk of their data from the Codesearch files from http://pocketgpsworld.com/tomtompoi.php but I see the files are no longer there!!?

POISoft, I presume from their posting, obtained theirs from Data Resellers.
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MarkHewitt
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My point is that the data didn't just appear from nowhere, it had to be obtained from an original source, and it's unlike that will be copyright free.

It's irrelavant now with the announcement of TomTom 5 anyway.
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hookiestreet
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 2:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

have been using ukpostcode since the first day i had my pda with tom tom 3 installed. fantastic little bit of software which im sure will be missed like hell. Many thanks for the effort you put into this FREE tool and good luck in future projects. Why not ask OS if they want to work alongside you rather than destroying what you've done for all us tom tom users.
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DavidW
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 3:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As has already been said, the forthcoming TomTom Navigator 5 includes full postcodes for the UK. That being the case, there's really no market to make licensing the data and developing a third party product worthwhile.



David
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nicknick
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Coincidence or not?

1) all of a sudden the OS start trying bully boy tactics
2) TomTom very soon after announce TomTom 5 with full postcode support.

I wonder where TomTom are licencing their Postcode support from!

Maybe the picture becomes clear.

Wouldn't want a free alternative to compete with would we! That might impact on the old profits

I think you should challenge the OS to produce evidence that you are infringing their copyright
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DavidW
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 9:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

My money would be on coincidence - for this reason. Navigator 5 also includes full postcode support for the Netherlands, which is the only other European country where postcodes are specific down to street level.

I don't believe there are or were any full postcode add-ons for the Netherlands.



David
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nicknick
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2005 11:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

David,

I thought the Netherlands postcode support was already in TT3.

I seem to remember the debate we had when TTN3 originally claimed full postcode support, and this turned out to be a mistake as we don't have full numeric postcodes as they do in Holland, but they still claimed Dutch postcode support

But that may just be my old memory
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DuncanLawson
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As other people have said - I just can't understand what OS's claim is to the postcode data. The postcode database (PAF) is owned by Royal Mail.

What exactly are OS saying? Neils never used OS coordinates as part of the program so it's not that. OS don't have any claim over Lat/Long coordinates - that's an international measurement (bit like trying to saying you own the rights to the measurement units of cm etc!!)

What exactly are they saying Neils? It sounds like misplaced bully boy tactics and bulls**t!!

Duncan
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DavidW
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 3:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm on the verge of locking this thread - though I'd like to explain why.

Niels has stated at the beginning of the thread that he's received a takedown request for the data from a copyright holder and that he's chosen not to fight that request but has agreed to delete all copies he holds of UK Postcode.

I take it that that probably means there no longer is a product to be "saved" (if that is the right word) by attempting to fight this.


Those that are saying the Royal Mail holds sole copyright on the postcode location data are almost certainly wrong. The information as to the authorship of that data is in page 169 of the PAF Digest. As the data is a co-production of the Royal Mail and other organisations, including Ordnance Survey, I suspect that the copyright is shared, and at least part of the copyright is likely to be Crown Copyright. I can quite believe that Ordnance Survey's legal department are well within their rights to enquire about the data on behalf of the various copyright holders - I would be very surprised if they had made a request to Niels that they were not entitled to do.


The hows and wherefores are, I suspect, likely to remain conjecture, and raking them over in the forums isn't helping anyone. Niels has already decided on his course of action.

The data is available to be licensed by anyone who wishes to enter into the appropriate commercial agreement with the copyright holder. My understanding is that there's a significant 'up front' fee to be paid, as well as a per user licence fee. However, I haven't made an explicit enquiry with respect to licensing the data.


As TomTom have decided to implement full postcode support in TomTom Navigator 5, I can't think it's worth anyone licensing the data to product an add-on for TomTom Navigator 3 and earlier versions now. By the time such a product could reach the market, TomTom Navigator 5 will almost certainly be available.

I don't buy the conspiracy theories, I'm afraid - I see it as TomTom throwing in a nice bonus by giving those of us in the UK fully licensed and up to date postcode information built in to the program alongside new maps when they launch the Navigator 5 upgrade. I think the timing is pure coincidence.

TomTom are not the first vendor to implement full postcode support - it's in AA Navigator, and I suspect it was a frequently requested feature for a future version of TomTom Navigator. There's been at least one forum thread recently where someone was going to pass over TomTom Navigator in favour of AA Navigator for full postcode support. I'm sure others have felt the same way.


This post is written with no inside knowledge, but purely from publicly available facts - namely Niels' post at the top of the thread, the TomTom Navigator 5 press release and details from the PAF section of the Royal Mail web site.


I suspect that Niels will choose not to comment further - though he is within his rights to do so. For now, I will not lock the thread, but would be grateful if people would try to keep things factual.



David
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amcluesent
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2005 11:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I suspect that the copyright is shared...
I can quite believe that...
I would be very surprised...
My understanding is that...
I can't think it's worth anyone...
I think the timing is pure coincidence...
I'm sure others have felt...

...would be grateful if people would try to keep things factual...

Rolling Eyes Laughing Out Loud, yes, please report just the facts people, there's definitely no place for idle speculation on this board!
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EvilTwin
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's just a thought, but could OS be developing a similar aplication, and are trying to scare the competition off?
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Oldboy
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 12:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

EvilTwin wrote:
It's just a thought, but could OS be developing a similar aplication, and are trying to scare the competition off?

There wouldn't be much point now with AA and TT bringing out full Postcode Searches.
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DavidW
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2005 1:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

amcluesent wrote:
I suspect that the copyright is shared...
I can quite believe that...
I would be very surprised...
My understanding is that...
I can't think it's worth anyone...
I think the timing is pure coincidence...
I'm sure others have felt...

...would be grateful if people would try to keep things factual...

Rolling Eyes Laughing Out Loud, yes, please report just the facts people, there's definitely no place for idle speculation on this board!

Oh, come on - I'm doing my best. You aren't going to get 'hard' answers - you won't get companies talking about their plans publicly, and conspiracy theories are almost impossible to refute.

I hope my record shows that I have a wide appreciation of the issues. I can only express an opinion, but my point was that my opinion was an informed one. The opinion I introduced was based on clearly cited publicly available information, rather than just saying "it's a conspiracy", or "PAF is Royal Mail". Urging others to keep things factual was an appeal to stick with that approach.


To my knowledge (which is all I can say), Ordnance Survey are not developing their own application - I've not known them to produce any software to do with PDAs. Certainly I don't think there's any mass market software produced directly by OS for PDA users. The topographic map products available for Pocket PC and Palm OS are produced by third parties who licence OS data.

Meanwhile, OS choose to protect their data quite aggressively, as the law entitles them to do. OS definitely are involved in the postcode location data, so the copyright is almost certainly shared as I said. If it matters to you enough to want that point completely clear, you'll have to approach Royal Mail or OS.


Further, as I said in my earlier reply, I think this is now a "dead" issue, in that Niels has deleted UK Postcode from his systems. No matter where this thread goes, Niels has already deleted UK Postcode.


If anyone wishes to licence the data and produce an equivalent product they're welcome to do so, but the licence fees mean a fee will have to be charged, and as TomTom Navigator 5 has full postcode support built in, where is the market?

I doubt (yes - an opinion again, but again it's informed) that there's anything more that can be said publicly on this matter. I think we've used all the public information we can get - though if anyone else can find anything else relevant, feel free to post it.



David
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