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COPILOT 5 UK ROUTING
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johnbarnes
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Joined: Sep 20, 2004
Posts: 27
Location: Oxfordshire

PostPosted: Mon Jan 10, 2005 12:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here is an example of unsatisfactory CoPilot 5 UK routing.

The route is from North Hinksey to Wolvercote, both near Oxford. Tests are with the desktop CoPilot version 5.0.1.22 with default settings for all the routing options, speeds and preferences.

Quickest: 5.0 miles 12 mins - this is via an unsuitable route which ignores appropriate local roads.
Shortest: 4.9 miles 13 mins - this is via an unsuitable route which goes via central Oxford.

Adding a waypoint at Wytham forces CoPilot to take a reasonable route. Both quickest and shortest are 3.6 miles 14 mins.

AutoRoute 2005 (which also uses Navteq maps) gets the reasonable route without any persuasion. Both quickest and shortest are 3.5 miles and 7 mins.

John B
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CoPilot Live 7, Fugawi Global Navigator, Pocket Streets, iPAQ 5550, GlobalSat BT338 GPS, Brodit Powered PDA mount, Jabra BT250 headset.
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PONDEROUS
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Joined: Aug 25, 2004
Posts: 634
Location: Lincolnshire, England

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave

Thank you for your reply. Sadly, I have to take issue with it.

You practically chided me for having criticised Copilot 5 and its reviews. Among your retorts was that CP5 could be "tweaked" to remove the major-road bias, and, you at least strongly implied that how to do the tweaking could be found somewhere in your forum. Now, I ask for the instructions, you you write that:

Quote:
it isn't something that's easily possible by changing a few ticks or bullet points ...


The fact is, then, that it is a specialist job to make the necessary changes.

This is breathtaking!!!

So, we are back to asking why ALK issued the programme with a "shortest" option when it does not work? - or with the other bugs and inadequacies that have been listed?

A further pertinent question is why forum managers appear so anxious to cloud these issues. No doubt it is unintentional, but it certainly has that effect. Do the forum managers know if any of these tweaks will actually achieve anything?

It is is unnecessary for me and others to start cataloguing all of the wrong turns, turn-arounds, unnecessarily long routes, etc. as it is already clear that these are major and widespread problems. There is already ample evidence on this thread to show that a major re-design is needed. Therefore, asking users to send lists of incorrect turns etc. serves merely to shift the responsibility off ALK's shoulders onto the users themselves.

Under these circumstances, I am sure that we all would appreciate it if you, Dave, would now help by asking ALK to state their intentions on this forum.
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 3:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PONDEROUS wrote:
Under these circumstances, I am sure that we all would appreciate it if you, Dave, would now help by asking ALK to state their intentions on this forum.


Clap

Dave, I know you need to keep on good terms with the suppliers but it damages the credibility of Pocketgpsworld to call CoPilot Live a "superb navigation product" in your review when it has some very serious problems.
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jdw7
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Joined: 24/12/2002 10:47:33
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Location: United Kingdom

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 1:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Just upgraded to version 5 (surprise Christmas present - I would never have paid the upgrade price myself) and having read the glowing review on this site was expecting great things. Instead I find that it's moved on very little since 3.5 and some of the routes it picks are ridiculous.
One question - do the reviewers on this site pay for the products they write about ? (think I'll leave it there)
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Dave
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jdw7 wrote:
One question - do the reviewers on this site pay for the products they write about ? (think I'll leave it there)

No we don't, but on the other hand, how many applications have you tested ? We have tested (nearly all applications) and rate them compared to other products bearing each feature in mind. Each review is written based upon past experience compared with other products, features, pitfalls and strengths.

If we like a product and want to use it ourselves, or for family members, then yes we will purchase them ourselves.
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Taxman
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Joined: Aug 29, 2004
Posts: 25
Location: Cleveland

PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 2:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

[quote="PONDEROUS"]
So, we are back to asking why ALK issued the programme with a "shortest" option when it does not work? - or with the other bugs and inadequacies that have been listed?

So if no answers are being made available here why not contact David Quin, Marketing Manager at ALK Technologies dquin@alk.com and see what they have to say about the problems you have with CP5. It would be interesting to see his response Laughing
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PONDEROUS
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks, Taxman for your suggestion that I:

Quote:
contact David Quin, Marketing Manager at ALK Technologies dquin@alk.com and see what they have to say about the problems you have with CP5
.

However, that would require me to expend still more of my time and resources when ALK have shown no interest in what has been posted here.

As I said in my previous post, this sort of action puts the ball in the customer's court when it should be in ALK's. Therefore, I think it is time for Mr Quin and his ALK colleagues to take the initative.

Having said this, I and, I imagine, others, would be pleased to enlarge upon or clarify matters for ALK as and when requested - if ALK first were to post an appropriate initial reply in this forum.

As for the PocketGPS team, I don't think they set out to mislead. However, they do need to be more circumspect in the future when writing their reviews. Certainly, they need to warn that a programme may not be all it seems until it has been used for a very long time. In the case of navigation programmes, it seems thay they also need to be used over very wide and varied geographical areas before reaching firm conclusions. For, as we have seen, the PocketGPS team still have not witnessed any of the problems that have been reported.
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BigPaul
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Joined: Dec 20, 2004
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 11, 2005 8:25 pm    Post subject: Another supporting voice Reply with quote

I also am disappointed with CP5, and I do not believe it lives up to its reviews. I cannot comment about other products as I only have sufficient cash to buy one ~ shame it was CP5 unless this really is the best (so what are the other like?)

I also receive poor (i.e. no) support from ALK questions and, although I am now up and running (thanks to this forum, and Dave) I feel the product is worth about 30 not 150.

It would be nice to have a location to post "issues" (one issue to one post) and to see an effect from that posting, even if it was a message saying 'tough' , which would be more than I have had so far.

Regards
Paul
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Taxman
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 2:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

:o Ponderous, I take your point about it being up to ALK - but if they are not being told of these problems in the first instance.... Aren't we all making an assumption that the folk at ALK are reading this forum? If they aren't then they will be unaware of all these issues. Or is an assumption being made that pocketgps are sending these e-mails through to the various companies listed as forum items?

Seems to me that if a customer has a problem with something that they contact the person/company who sold it to them or the manufaturer.
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PONDEROUS
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 3:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you for that, Taxman.

I would be very surprised if ALK did not read the forum, particularly since this is not the first time that I have posted a request for them to respond.

The forum provides a company with evidence from more than one user and also allow the company to demonstrate publicly that they are taking matters seriously - or not. As I say, the evidence is here -(despite, I have to say, some interventions by the PocketGPS team that tend to play the issue down and which some might take to refute the evidence.

This is not a case of an individual who is experiencing a minor irritation, which could, and perhaps should, be taken care of with a 'phone call to ALK (assuming that they respond). It is a case of fundamental and multiple flaws that need to be resolved for the benefit of all users.

As I say, I believe that I and others have done our part. It is now for others to take some responsibility.
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PONDEROUS
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 12, 2005 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Taxman

Having said what I did in my last message, I have now emailed Mr Quin at ALK to draw his attention to this thread.

As you suggest, it will be interesting to see the response.
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Dave
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

PONDEROUS wrote:
As for the PocketGPS team, I don't think they set out to mislead. However, they do need to be more circumspect in the future when writing their reviews. Certainly, they need to warn that a programme may not be all it seems until it has been used for a very long time. In the case of navigation programmes, it seems thay they also need to be used over very wide and varied geographical areas before reaching firm conclusions. For, as we have seen, the PocketGPS team still have not witnessed any of the problems that have been reported.

No matter how much testing you do, on the road, or using data loggers, you will never find all problems, or even anywhere close to half of them. That's why 99% of all software released on the market to day whether it's PDA, Windows, Linux, all have bugs and vulnerabilities in them.

GPS companies could test products for two years before they release the end product, but you wouldn't be happy because the product wouldn't be available to purchase.

We could test products for 6 months or a year prior to writing a review, but again, people wouldn't be happy because we haven't written a review. Reviews are based on personal experience. If we see a lot of lockups, or wrong information, no M6 coverage etc, then we'll detail it in the review, but none of us are super human. Everyone here are running PPC's. Lockups in general tend to be down to lack of system resources, bad SD cards, we can't test every single storage card with the product, we can't run every single type of setup that everyone may have installed to test the application. This is why the PND's (Personal Navigation Devices), aka Navman iCN, TomTom GO etc are much more attractable because you cannot install other applications, they come pre-installed with the 'chosen' storage cards for quality, and it cuts down most of the perceived problems that users face. PDA's were not designed for navigation in mind, like everything it's a bolt-on application, it works very well in the majority of situations, but it all depends on what you have installed and how you use your PDA depending on whether you may or may not find problems.

Mapping is also an issue, but this is down to geodata providers like NAVTEQ and TeleAtlas. Routing algorithm's can be tested and we do test these, but again everyone has a different perception on how they should get from A to B. For some people an obscure route may be the best due to local knowledge, even though it takes them 15 miles out of the way. To others, it may be seen as useless.

Taxman wrote:
:o Ponderous, I take your point about it being up to ALK - but if they are not being told of these problems in the first instance.... Aren't we all making an assumption that the folk at ALK are reading this forum? If they aren't then they will be unaware of all these issues. Or is an assumption being made that pocketgps are sending these e-mails through to the various companies listed as forum items?

ALK read these forums on a fairly regular basis. This has dropped off recently due to popularity of the product, but they do still frequent the forums quite, er, frequently. You have to understand that most companies do not like replying in public forums BECAUSE they're liable to be lynched by users, even if a product is great, they'll be hammered about new features, why are you doing it like this ? So don't necessarily expect a public reply from ALK here.
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Taxman
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Joined: Aug 29, 2004
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Location: Cleveland

PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 2:48 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

Thanks for the info on the readership - I'll bear that in mind for future.

Ponderous - looking forward to seeing your reply from ALK!!
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PONDEROUS
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 13, 2005 8:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There may be something in Dave's protest that neither he nor ALK can guarantee to get it absolutely right before publishing a review or marketing a product. However, both reviewers and manufacturers could have said so long before now - in, respectively, their reviews and promotional material. Furthermore, it is not a tiny hiccup that has led him to have to make his protest, but a catalogue of serious errors that should never have been there - and implied questions about his forum's impartiality in dealing with them.

Dave now suggests that there might be conflicts with other applications running alongside Copilot. However, I checked with ALK whether Copliot would run alongside other applications (including GPS-using programmes)before purchase, and I have tried Copilot since with nothing else running.

It is possible - but unlikely - that everyone reporting these errors has a faulty SD card. I certainly shall be trying a new one, and if it is the answer then at last the forum will have come up with something useful!

What is inescapable is that the PocketGPS team apparently cannot bring itself to consider the remotest possibility that there could be something very wrong with Copilot. Thus, Dave, in his latest post, on top of his earlier unfortunate contributions, uses the adjective "perceived" when referring to the reported errors, as if he believes that, for example, Copilot's instructions to turn around in a motorway are really just imagined.

Perhaps - SD cards notwithstanding - Dave should devote his energies to re-testing the product and amending his review, as others, who have yet to make a purchase, will be reading it.
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CrashBiker
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Joined: Aug 09, 2004
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ponderous - from the outside it seems that you are long past the point at which you would consider CPL5 an acceptable tool for you in its current state but seem to be intent on flogging this dead horse.

Unless I miss something Dave and PocketGPS offered a review and opinion that was not specifically targetted at any individual's requirements, was an honest evaluation from a team more experienced than most with this type of product and charged all of us readers not one penny to see the opinion. To me this is a service to the community.

Like all journalism you form your own opinion on how closely the journalists views match your own and on what you like to read. There are all sorts of views and I suppose that's one reasons why there are so many national daily newspapers.

For what it is worth - I own CPL5 and I agree with many of your comments - honestly I do - but this is state of the art (or at least I judged it to be so when I purchased) and if it's not good enough for you then fair enough but I'm not sure what will be. I like the product, run it on an iPAQ3970 with WM2003 where it is very reliable (though not quite perfect) and use it and rely on it regularly.

I've tried several Tom-Tom's, including the "Go" product, but when (for me) a significant proportion of the addresses I try are missing from the map data I gave up on all Tele-Atlas products. Sure it may be 10mins ETA more accurate or produce a route 2 miles shorter but if my destination isn't on the map I still get lost.

On that basis I decided Navteq data was essential and (at the time) CPL was the best (possibly only). To be fair I haven't seen or tried Navigon.

I do turn on CPL at Journey's start but if I know a better route, I take it. I've grown to like the extended ETA's, they pad my arrival time a little for traffic and if I arive early it seems like a bonus. I tend to rely on CPL for the first 10 mins and last 10 mins of a journey. (The last few miles to destination address and then getting back out of unfamiliar city centres). I no longer get lost and don't have the stress and danger of trying to glance at road atlas or multimap printout whilst driving. That to me is superb value.

I look forward to next year's version, I also feel somewhat mislead over live traffic so I'm keeping my trafficmaster freeway in the meantime and I won't promise I won't go Tom-Tom in 2006 or Navigon in 2007 depending on how the market changes. Nevertheless I am getting superb value on a regular basis from what is a product in a niche market (low volume) with high development costs at a price I'm prepared to pay.

I have no connection with ALK other than as a customer, I've had disappointing email support but very good phone support in my time, but as someone who has worked for hardware vendors for many years the sad fact is ALK would be nuts to start commenting on this forum.

They will have a customer call management system (however good or bad) but there is no sane way a public website forum could be run alongside as a customer response mechanism.

I am convinced if they commented even once the flood gates would open, they wouldn't magically have more people to handle correspondance, either regular channel response would suffer further and/or (probably and) forum readers would get more angry as one response would invite much submission and the submitters would then have an expectation of reply.

For what it's worth I think the tone of this has become somewhat unreasonably impolite towards Dave and PocketGPS. I'd suggest you consider where you want to go from here: if it's to abandon CPL maybe it is now time; if you want to talk to ALK then maybe pursue this with ALK; or perhaps decide that it has its faults but it also has much value.

Kind regards

Crash
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