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GTM21 traffic issues
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Lester_Burnham
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 03, 2008 8:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
My point was that it was the Traffic Information facility that edged the C510 into the 'Which?' Best Buy and Excellent Value categories.


Because in fairness, it does make it excellent value.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Without that it wouldn't have featured as a Best Buy or been regarded as Excellent Value. That wouldn't mean it was a poor product (and bar the GTM21 it's not) but it isn't as good as offerings from other manufacturers.


I disagree.

The TMC offerings from all vendors seem to suffer from poor reception in the UK.

That's not to say that they all shouldn't do something about it, mind.

But it is as good as other vendors products, and bundling the GTM21 with the C510 does make it very good value.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Until Garmin get the problems sorted, they do not deserve the free advertising and extra sales that a 'Which?' recommendation brings.


Rubbish - I don't believe Garmin are any weaker in this respect than TomTom or Navman.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Unless the replacement GTM21 that I am expecting from Garmin works reliably, I think I will be asking the retailer that I bought my C510 from for a refund of the difference between the price of a unit with the GTM21 and that without. I'm happy with the C510 but will stick to the tried, tested and very reliable TrafficMaster Freeway for my traffic info.


Or if you think this is just Garmin's problem, opt for a full refund, and take on another vendors TMC (RDS / FM receiving product). Then perhaps you'll recognise it's not something that Garmin are alone in.

Now as I said earlier, that's not to say that all the sat nav / TMC vendors shouldn't work on this problem - they should.

I suspect this doesn't appear to us customers as being taken seriously, at the moment, probably due to the size of the UK market, and the likelihood that the various TMC products don't have quite as much trouble of issues in some of the larger countries / markets.

To put this in context, I know this is purely a reception / poor signal / aerial issue, because if I place the mount on an upstairs bedroom window, with the TMC aerial attached, it works at home, also, if I switch on my C510 and the TMC adaptor whilst I'm outside of the car, it gets perfect reception, yet at the same location, with it all connected up inside of my cars, it's unlikely (in these specific locations (home and work)) that I would.
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RoyalGiz1871a
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 4:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

To be honest, I respect the 'Which?' test results, which are conducted in a scientific and objective manner far more than your personal onion and spirited defence of Garmin.

The score they gave for the C510 was already lower than seven other units they tested and the C510 was the lowest scoring of their best buys. Had 'Which?' picked up on the unreliability of the Traffic Information service and the fact that it cost extra for the extremely unreliable GTM 21, I am pretty sure it would not feature as a best buy.

I have just received the replacement unit from Garmin and the problem is exactly the same. It doesn't receive any traffic signals no matter where it is used and that includes outdoor at the top of a very top hill and with the antenna hung out of the bedroom window. To my mind that suggests it is not merely a question of signal strength. If it is an aerial issue then the blame lies fairly and squarely at the feet of Garmin (incidentally I note that the TomTOM TMC receiver itself also attaches to the windscreen that might assist with better reception).

As far as I am concerned the GTM21 is a pile of cr*p!

Incidentally bundling something that doesn't work at all with a Sat Nav unit does nothing whatsoever to increase the value and, given the higher price actually decreases the value for money of the original unit!
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Lester_Burnham
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
To be honest, I respect the 'Which?' test results, which are conducted in a scientific and objective manner far more than your personal onion and spirited defence of Garmin.


Regardless of my onions ;-), this isn't my or anybody elses' spirited defence of Garmin.

It's merely recognition that all the TMC units from the various vendors, appear to suffer from reception problems.

The only reason I'm taking the time to respond is for one very simple, yet salient point - Garmin are hardly alone or the singular worst provider of TMC adapters.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
The score they gave for the C510 was already lower than seven other units they tested and the C510 was the lowest scoring of their best buys. Had 'Which?' picked up on the unreliability of the Traffic Information service and the fact that it cost extra for the extremely unreliable GTM 21, I am pretty sure it would not feature as a best buy.


All TMC adapters seem to struggle with reception in the UK. I've had some good reception with it, and some poor reception with it.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Incidentally bundling something that doesn't work at all with a Sat Nav unit does nothing whatsoever to increase the value and, given the higher price actually decreases the value for money of the original unit!


"doesn't work at all" is simply wrong.

It could work better, and the TMC RDS signal could be stronger in the UK. Read the TMC forum, if you think this is just a Garmin or GTM21 problem.

Bundling the GTM21 with the C510 for the prices that it's been selling for recently, IS good value for money.


Last edited by Lester_Burnham on Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:21 am; edited 1 time in total
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RoyalGiz1871a
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mine doesn't work at all and - having read the threads there are numerous other examples of others that don't work at all or only when all the planets happen to be in the right position with a following wind.

Yes, I accept that other manufacturers are having problems too but they don't seem as widespread as Garmins. Also units from the other manufacturers outscore the C510 on other areas on the basis of tests conducted by 'Which?'.

We will have to agree to disagree on the good value for money argument because I will never be able to understand how bundling a highly unreliable/completely non-functional unit with something else and charging extra for the combined package can ever be good value. To me a plug, a couple of bits of wire and two suction cups (for that is all the GTM21 I have is) is worth absolutely nothing!

Quite frankly I am very annoyed that Garmin don't just put up their hands and come clean on the problem. Instead they just get me to throw good money after bad by returning the unit to them at my expense so they can send me out another equally useless piece of kit. Incidentally according to the service report sent with the replacement, my original suffered from a 'software problem' - still no mention of signal strength/reception issues.

What a shame that no one from Garmin seems to care what is written about their products on high profile forums such as this. It would be nice to see their response to the criticisms.
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Lester_Burnham
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2008 5:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Yes, I accept that other manufacturers are having problems too but they don't seem as widespread as Garmins.


Rubbish.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Also units from the other manufacturers outscore the C510 on other areas on the basis of tests conducted by 'Which?'.


So buy one of those, then.

And see how TMC works on them. Good luck with that.

If you are in a poor reception area, and / or have an athermic windscreen, you may well struggle.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
We will have to agree to disagree on the good value for money argument because I will never be able to understand how bundling a highly unreliable/completely non-functional unit


Because quite simply, and comprehensively, it's not completely unreliable or non-functioning. Yours may be, or the environment you use it in may not be conducive.

Mine works. It could work better. I can completely predict the areas where it will get reception and where it will stop. With careful rigging of the TMC aerial, I can get better reception.

Also, if I use it outside, it always receives a signal.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Quite frankly I am very annoyed that Garmin don't just put up their hands and come clean on the problem. Instead they just get me to throw good money after bad by returning the unit to them at my expense so they can send me out another equally useless piece of kit. Incidentally according to the service report sent with the replacement, my original suffered from a 'software problem' - still no mention of signal strength/reception issues.

What a shame that no one from Garmin seems to care what is written about their products on high profile forums such as this. It would be nice to see their response to the criticisms.


1. Garmin's TMC adapters aren't the only vendors TMC units that struggle with reception.

2. Have you used webupdater to ensure your TMC firmware is the latest, and have you cleared the table afterwards? Have you also tried it outside (ie not in a vehicle)?

I'm no apologist for Garmin or any other manufacturer. And I'm no apologist for devices that don't work the way they should. My only gripe is singling out Garmin as the sole offender, when several other vendors have the same or very similar problems.

Hell, if you look at the map, the whole of the UK isn't currently served by the TMC RDS signal.
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RoyalGiz1871a
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 8:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yes, I have used the webdater and have the very latest software and firmware (confirmed by Garmin customer support).

So using my unit in a car might be considered a non-conducive environment? Well that makes a complete mockery of the whole product/service! It's meant to be used in a car for pete's sake!!

As for the rest of the environment, if you can't pick up traffic information on some of Europe's busiest motorways e.g. the M25 and M4, then once again the product (and by all means extend that to other manufacturers should you wish, but it is Garmin who have happily pocketed my money) and the service is a joke!

And yes, I have tried using the unit outside, up hills (close to the M25), on the roadside at the Denham (M40) roundabout, again not far from the M25, with aerial out of first floor windows etc. Occasionally I might just be lucky and pick up some traffic info after about thirty minutes. Great! Next time I need traffic info I'll hop out of the car and hang around for half an hour!

In my book (and it appears that of many others) that does make it a highly unreliable (my actual words) or in some cases (as with the first unit I was sold) completely non-functional unit.

I really don't see why consumers should spend ages messing around carefully rigging the aerial to get better reception (where in the advertising blurb is that requirement highlighted?!). Nor should they have to make do with predicting areas where they can get reception when it comes to travelling on motorways and major routes (just as with mobile phone signals I would expect reliability to decline right out in the sticks).

As for coverage - take a look at what Garmin advertise:

https://shop.garmin.com/fmtraffic/select_service_plan.asp?L=EN&CR=2&PR=2

Now how honest a picture does that portray?!!

Not a single mention of service limitations/reception/signal strength issues in the areas I am trying to use their unit. Thereagain, if they painted a truer picture, how many would click to add the subscription?!
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Lester_Burnham
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
So using my unit in a car might be considered a non-conducive environment? Well that makes a complete mockery of the whole product/service! It's meant to be used in a car for pete's sake!!


I meant the area you use it in may not have strong support for the signal - have you checked? Does your car have an athermic windscreen, or have any coatings on it?

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
As for the rest of the environment, if you can't pick up traffic information on some of Europe's busiest motorways e.g. the M25 and M4, then once again the product (and by all means extend that to other manufacturers should you wish, but it is Garmin who have happily pocketed my money) and the service is a joke!


There have been many complaints about the use of TMC over RDS, and I'm not trying to suggest that the complaints are unfounded - I just reject that Garmin, or the GTM21 are the sole offenders.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
And yes, I have tried using the unit outside, up hills (close to the M25), on the roadside at the Denham (M40) roundabout, again not far from the M25, with aerial out of first floor windows etc. Occasionally I might just be lucky and pick up some traffic info after about thirty minutes. Great! Next time I need traffic info I'll hop out of the car and hang around for half an hour!


The only reason I mentioned it being that at home, and at work, whilst I'm in my car, I don't tend to (but on occasion may) get a TMC signal, however, walking to my car (the short distance from my house, to the street or drive outside) or from my office to the car park, with my C510 switched on, and the TMC aerial dangling, is sufficient to pick up the TMC signal - even if as soon as I connect it up inside the car, the TMC signal isn't received. So if needs be, I know I can calculate the route outside the car, with TMC information received, so that (as a result of the avoidances I have set) I can get a route calculated that's factored in the TMC info.

I don't get TMC signal absolutely everywhere (with it inside my car). Normally I start getting it around 7 or 8 miles from where I live (assuming my normal route on the motorway), and mostly whilst on major motorways. On some minor motorways the TMC reception can be quite patchy. That's why if delays are important to me, I often let it calculate the route before I've got in the car, so it's factored in any TMC information, and I will get TMC information on route, just not constantly on route.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
In my book (and it appears that of many others) that does make it a highly unreliable (my actual words) or in some cases (as with the first unit I was sold) completely non-functional unit.

I really don't see why consumers should spend ages messing around carefully rigging the aerial to get better reception (where in the advertising blurb is that requirement highlighted?!). Nor should they have to make do with predicting areas where they can get reception when it comes to travelling on motorways and major routes (just as with mobile phone signals I would expect reliability to decline right out in the sticks).

As for coverage - take a look at what Garmin advertise:

https://shop.garmin.com/fmtraffic/select_service_plan.asp?L=EN&CR=2&PR=2

Now how honest a picture does that portray?!!

Not a single mention of service limitations/reception/signal strength issues in the areas I am trying to use their unit. Thereagain, if they painted a truer picture, how many would click to add the subscription?!


2 things.

1. Garmins TMC units tend to be all-inclusive (ie the subscription is included in the price of the TMC unit, or the bundle it's sold with).

2. Do any of the other sat nav vendors paint this more honest reality?

Yes, TMC isn't great. Reception is often poor, and does not yet perform as good as it should. But the MAIN issue with all of this is the signal strength, not one particular vendor.
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philpugh
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 08, 2008 2:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
As for coverage - take a look at what Garmin advertise:

https://shop.garmin.com/fmtraffic/select_service_plan.asp?L=EN&CR=2&PR=2

Now how honest a picture does that portray?!!

Not a single mention of service limitations/reception/signal strength issues in the areas I am trying to use their unit. Thereagain, if they painted a truer picture, how many would click to add the subscription?!


It's as accurate as any reception chart that is published (for any radio/TV broadcasts) - that is it doesn't take into account very specific local issues (deep valleys etc) and will assume a reasonably decent aerial. I suspect it's a composite taken from the transmission maps produced by/for the Radio companies.

I bought a nuvi 660 with included GTM21 almost exactly a year ago. I had intermittent reception with the internal aerial. I connected it to my external car aerial (total additional cost <10 and 30mins work) and the situation improved significantly. I can get reception of TMC signals at home, 23 miles from the transmitter, whilst the car is parked in a corrugated steel barn with only one side (not facing the transmitter!) open. In all my travels up and down the country since then I get very good TMC coverage and it has saved me on a number of occasions.

Yes - ALL manufacturers should make it easier to connect their TMC units to an external aerial but the present configs seem to work OK elsewhere in the world. A better solution would be to allow UK transmitters to increase the power of the RDS/TMC transmissions - but with crowded airwves that doesn't seem to be likely on FM - DAB opens up a much better opportunity.
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RoyalGiz1871a
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 5:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

philpugh wrote:
RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
As for coverage - take a look at what Garmin advertise:

https://shop.garmin.com/fmtraffic/select_service_plan.asp?L=EN&CR=2&PR=2

Now how honest a picture does that portray?!!

Not a single mention of service limitations/reception/signal strength issues in the areas I am trying to use their unit. Thereagain, if they painted a truer picture, how many would click to add the subscription?!


It's as accurate as any reception chart that is published (for any radio/TV broadcasts) - that is it doesn't take into account very specific local issues (deep valleys etc) and will assume a reasonably decent aerial. I suspect it's a composite taken from the transmission maps produced by/for the Radio companies.

I bought a nuvi 660 with included GTM21 almost exactly a year ago. I had intermittent reception with the internal aerial. I connected it to my external car aerial (total additional cost <10 and 30mins work) and the situation improved significantly.



The trouble is I've read elsewhere on these forums that other people who have tried this DIY solution have seen a denigration in the quality of the output from their car radio!
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Katabatics
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PostPosted: Sat Feb 23, 2008 1:50 pm    Post subject: GTM21 service in the UK Reply with quote

It is interesting to see the same type of correspondence about the same problem a year after I was experiencing it and searching for a solution. I did post my findings, but here is what I found
1. The units works and TMC works
2. The problem is the low signal output strength from UK radio stations.
3. In France and it works with the Garmin ariel string even in mountains
4. Solution - incresase the signal strength
5. How - use you car ariel feed
Method
Either buy an ariel splitter to create a feed off the input line of the car ariel where it connects to the radio, or splice a coax cable into the feed. (Maplins are very helpful) Run the coax from the radio end all the way up to the block where the garmin ariel string (GAS) terminates (best to put a coax connection where the coax egresses from the dash for ease of transportability. Pull the black plastic end off the GAS and solder the central coax core to it the exposed GAS. Coil the GAS up tightly and tape to the power and coax cables.

Use coax all the way as this is critical to screen the feed inside the car.

This will give you very good coverage. It's not perfect and if you are in very weak areas it may not work or work intermitently. I live in the Chister area (West Sussex). In a drive to Southampton, I only ever got reception briefly at Portsmouth, after the above, it's continuous from Chichetser and also works in the surrounding countryside and the downs. It is very satisfactory in other parts of the country too.

There is no point is complaining to Garmin or your dealer however frustrating and anoying the problem is, just make the mod.
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Katabatics
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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

see 23rd Feb entry


Lester_Burnham wrote:
RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
My point was that it was the Traffic Information facility that edged the C510 into the 'Which?' Best Buy and Excellent Value categories.


Because in fairness, it does make it excellent value.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Without that it wouldn't have featured as a Best Buy or been regarded as Excellent Value. That wouldn't mean it was a poor product (and bar the GTM21 it's not) but it isn't as good as offerings from other manufacturers.


I disagree.

The TMC offerings from all vendors seem to suffer from poor reception in the UK.

That's not to say that they all shouldn't do something about it, mind.

But it is as good as other vendors products, and bundling the GTM21 with the C510 does make it very good value.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Until Garmin get the problems sorted, they do not deserve the free advertising and extra sales that a 'Which?' recommendation brings.


Rubbish - I don't believe Garmin are any weaker in this respect than TomTom or Navman.

RoyalGiz1871a wrote:
Unless the replacement GTM21 that I am expecting from Garmin works reliably, I think I will be asking the retailer that I bought my C510 from for a refund of the difference between the price of a unit with the GTM21 and that without. I'm happy with the C510 but will stick to the tried, tested and very reliable TrafficMaster Freeway for my traffic info.


Or if you think this is just Garmin's problem, opt for a full refund, and take on another vendors TMC (RDS / FM receiving product). Then perhaps you'll recognise it's not something that Garmin are alone in.

Now as I said earlier, that's not to say that all the sat nav / TMC vendors shouldn't work on this problem - they should.

I suspect this doesn't appear to us customers as being taken seriously, at the moment, probably due to the size of the UK market, and the likelihood that the various TMC products don't have quite as much trouble of issues in some of the larger countries / markets.

To put this in context, I know this is purely a reception / poor signal / aerial issue, because if I place the mount on an upstairs bedroom window, with the TMC aerial attached, it works at home, also, if I switch on my C510 and the TMC adaptor whilst I'm outside of the car, it gets perfect reception, yet at the same location, with it all connected up inside of my cars, it's unlikely (in these specific locations (home and work)) that I would.
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Feek
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 1:36 pm    Post subject: Re: GTM21 service in the UK Reply with quote

Katabatics wrote:
Either buy an ariel splitter to create a feed off the input line of the car ariel where it connects to the radio, or splice a coax cable into the feed. (Maplins are very helpful) Run the coax from the radio end all the way up to the block where the garmin ariel string (GAS) terminates (best to put a coax connection where the coax egresses from the dash for ease of transportability. Pull the black plastic end off the GAS and solder the central coax core to it the exposed GAS. Coil the GAS up tightly and tape to the power and coax cables.


I'm quite happy to do this, but what do you do with the earth (outer) at the GAS end, do you just leave it floating, as I assume the aerial wire hanging out of the receiver is single core?

Keith.
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philpugh
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The 'correct' solution would be to trim the GARMIN aerial to a very short length and make the connection to the aerial splitter with co-ax. BUT... a more pragmatic approach would be to leave it the original length, coil it up and connect the free end to the Y splitter. I suspect the input circuitry of the GARMIN aerial isn't looking for a well terminated 75ohm load.

The latter apporoach is what I have used in my car. The only drawback is that if my 660 isn't connected to the car power then the radio reception degrades a little - leaving me to suspect that the GARMIN radio is dependent upon the "ground" circuit being completed.
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citron
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:23 am    Post subject: GTM Traffic Issues Reply with quote

Hi just back from a holiday to Majorca. Whilst there had a hire car ( new VW Passat) for a week so took my Nuvii 660 with me.
I wasn't expecting or anticipating the need for traffic info so when I plugged the unit in I left the antenna coiled around the 12v supply lead which meant it was not near the windscreen.
Guess what??
Almost instantly it came up with traffic info on the Spanish mainland around the Barcelona areas.!!... I think this goes some way to show that perhaps the problem with reception in Uk is not Garmins problem after all, it is down to signal strength from transmitters.
I have also used the unit in Holland with no problems at all.
Incidentally I held it near the window on the plane coming back and it worked perfectly, even showing up the location of temporary speed cameras over southern France. I have taken a screen shot of the trip computer which shows a maximum speed of 556 miles per hour!! Anyone recorded a faster speed than that ???????//// Laughing Out Loud
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swing
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PostPosted: Sat Mar 08, 2008 10:36 pm    Post subject: Re: GTM Traffic Issues Reply with quote

citron wrote:
I think this goes some way to show that perhaps the problem with reception in Uk is not Garmins problem after all, it is down to signal strength from transmitters.
I agree that the cause of the problem is the lower transmission strength of the UK radio transmitters, but I still hold that this makes it Garmin's problem. Garmin's European HQ is in the UK, so it's not like they have no staff in the UK to actually test the service before selling the devices. Many device manufacturers have failed to realise how bad their systems perform whilst travelling around.

With the planned launch of TomTom's HD Traffic service later this year, it will be interesting to see what other manufacturers come up with to compete with it.
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