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PRESS RELEASE: TomTom Launches Navigator 3
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st1967
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Joined: Nov 28, 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Although Tom Tom traffic does sound nice I think I will still keep to my dash mounted trafficmaster system. Have personally found that it's quite accurate and is only worth looking for a new route if your holdup is over 20 minutes. Saved me on quite a few occasions though.
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NMatthew
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:12 am    Post subject: No M6 Toll? Reply with quote

I think it's disgraceful that TeleAtlas/Tomtom may have chosen to release a major version of Navigator without including the most significant road development in the UK in the last decade. (If we're correct in reading Dave's "don't be too optimistic" post this way).

It's not as if the M6 Toll oad was a surprise - it took long enough to build. It affects a great number of journeys all around the Midlands. Making us wait another year for it to be included in navigation systems is a travesty.

I am seriously considering not upgrading to V3 or buying the European maps for my Summer trips into France, Switzerland and Italy, but instead switch to the first alternative system that includes up to date maps.

I hope the good chaps at pocketgps will let us know which product that is.

Neil
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RichDem
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dave,

Do you know if the waypoint planner allows you to plan a route using waypoints stored as POI's. I have a POI file that I have created which includes various locations that I like to use when I want to travel a specific route Question Happy
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Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can't answer the question specifically, but if you can navigate using a POI in TTN2 then I'd think it would be silly for TomTom to leave it out of the itinerary. Wink
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naza
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Joined: Oct 31, 2003
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: No M6 Toll? Reply with quote

NMatthew wrote:
I think it's disgraceful that TeleAtlas/Tomtom may have chosen to release a major version of Navigator without including the most significant road development in the UK in the last decade. (If we're correct in reading Dave's "don't be too optimistic" post this way).

It's not as if the M6 Toll oad was a surprise - it took long enough to build. It affects a great number of journeys all around the Midlands. Making us wait another year for it to be included in navigation systems is a travesty.

I am seriously considering not upgrading to V3 or buying the European maps for my Summer trips into France, Switzerland and Italy, but instead switch to the first alternative system that includes up to date maps.

I hope the good chaps at pocketgps will let us know which product that is.

Neil



Here Here!!!

The fact that the tomtom are calling this version 3 is a complete joke in my oponion, I will of course wait for the Review before making a decision but , on information so far i will be looking elsewhere im afraid. Ok so it supports waypoints BIG DEAL!!! what about stability with H5550's what about FULL postcode searching!! 5 digit searching is insufficient as some roads can be very long (looking for a road on "hagley road" birmingham can be a long process) thank the lord for niels app!

We await the review, Any chance you can test on h5550 with a Navman 3400 jacket?

Naza
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Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bear in mind that this isn't a TomTom issue, it's TeleAtlas. If you look at a lot of other products using TeleAtlas data they don't appear to have the M6 toll road either (from what I've seen).

Naza, send us yours and we'll give it a test Happy
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NMatthew
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Of course it is a Tomtom issue. Whose else could it be? After all, it's their product that they are marketing. They make claims about "updated maps" and they chose TeleAtlas as their data supplier (who also make great claims about their mapping).

Tomtom chose to release a product using October 2003 data (whatever that means) without insisting that the data be up to date, and also chose not to implement an update scheme should more accurate data become available between major versions. I guess this is the main gripe: Tomtom do not subscribe to frequent enough TeleAtlas updates, nor make them available to customers.

Some might say "what did you expect for ?". I'd say that regardless of price I expect a product to live up to the claims made for it. "Updated maps" means to me that the data should be up to date.

The result is poor service to customers who continue to live with map data that is missing features (like roads!) that have been around for five years or more.

What do you think is a reasonable timescale for new roads to appear in navigation products? I'd be interested in knowing which other new roads are missing from TTN3 so we can see just how old the mapping data is. The trunk road bypasses on the A43 and A6 would be a useful guide as they have been steadily built over the last few years. Anyone care to take a look at the TTN3 maps and post on here?

Neil
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Dave
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are over exagerating a little there Neil. The problem is with TeleAtlas, if they aren't mapping out some of the new major roads then there's little that can be done. Sure TomTom and other companies can complain, but they can't magically make it happen!

The geodata will be up to date as per the latest TeleAtlas release of data, if TeleAtlas aren't supplying particular updated roads what do you want TomTom to do ? Perhaps put off their software release for another year ?

Yes I do agree TomTom could issue quarterly or monthly updated maps, but they you won't be paying the current upgrade fee, probably 3 or 4 times the amount.

Like I said, TomTom are claiming updated maps. Just because there maybe some roads not listed there, doesn't mean they're not updated. Just because they don't have every road you want updated doesn't mean they're not updated.

Every company is going to be in the same boat, they either use NavTech or TeleAtlas data.

We've discussed in another thread exactly how new roads get updated and the time frequency it takes. If you're lucky new roads will start showing in 6 months, but in a lot of cases 12-18 months or longer.
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Nick412
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I must admit i like tomtom, but the one main thing that annoys me, are the maps.

I know its not tomtoms fault, but as its a strategic partnership between the two companies, it could possibly lose tomtom money if people see (and hear) that the maps are out of date, and not worth buying (if you are in or travel to an out of date area) isnt good business.

I am a newbie to tomtom and ye i guess its ok, but i havnt compared it to anything, as its my first sat nav software.

I also see that they have added about 5mb of map data making the total around 100mb for the UK ttnv3, so suppose this might include some areas not previously covered.

Is it only teleatlas that can upply these maps to tomtom.? could they look elsewhere for another supplier, who might give faster and cheaper updates to tomtom because of their size etc.


Cheers
Nick
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NMatthew
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm sorry if you think I am exaggerating and perhaps I should be happy to given whatever Tomtom deign to provide.

I would certainly prefer the company to be a little more forthcoming though. That doesn't seem too much to ask.

I have read elsewhere that TeleAtlas have claimed they had (at the time) more up to date maps than Tomtom used in TTN2, and that it is up to Tomtom to subscribe to TeleAtlas updates, and I suspect that in order to control costs they don't. Whether, as you state, updates would be 3-4 times the cost I'm not sure about. The upgrade to TTN3 for TTN2 users is going to be 49 euros (plus VAT presumably). The full product price is 169 euros, so you seem to be suggesting that updating maps costs as much as developing a completely new product version. Seems improbable to me to be honest.

Your point about roads taking a while to appear is well taken as this of course happens with other products, but by the time we get TTN4 there will be some large roads that will have been built three years. Rather more than your estimate of 18 months.

I contend that the M6 Toll Road is a special case. You may be based in the South (I don't know); I know many Londoners consider other areas of secondary importance. But consider this:

The M6 around Birmingham is the most congested road in the country (maybe even Europe), certainly at times busier than the M25 around Heathrow. The toll road was a major construction, 27-miles long, it took 10 years or more from planning to opening. It is claimed that it will save 45 minutes on a peak time through journey.

Tomtom release a product that relies on good quality data to function. Moreover, they introduce in TTN3 a feature that uses live traffic data to route around congestion. Fantastic. But, it will fail to re-route around the busiest road in the country beacuse it has no knowledge of the M6 Toll. It seems bizarre to me that TeleAtlas and Tomtom did not know that this road was being built. The route has been known for years. It should have been included in data incorporated into products for 2004. Without an interim map update this new feature will be of restricted use in this area, which as you will appreciate affects a large number of through routes too.

I hope that Tomtom read this board (they have a link on their own site after all). Dear Mr. Tomtom: If the M6 Toll is not in TTN3 tell us when it will be in any other version.

Dave, if you have access to TTN3 are you prepared to check out any other roads so we can get an estimate of the practical length of time it takes to get roads into Tomtom? I'm not talking hordes of minor side roads or newly built housing estates here, but a few truck roads we can find the build dates for.

Regards
Neil
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Richard
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

alix776 wrote:
ordered the uk version today from clove with bt receaver for 170 hopefully should get it within 2 weeks and it starts shipping next week
yay


Looks like a good price. Before I order one has anyone found it cheaper?
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Cessquill
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:02 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maps arguments is going to be around for a few years methinks...

Is anybody able to clarify - can you now specify a route that crosses two maps automatically installed, or have they just added an extra 'cut down' map.

If it's the latter then it's OK, I guess, but not great - I'm guessing that you could potentially still have to plot three routes, changing maps in the meantime because the software can't do it for you.
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NMatthew
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 12:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've done a little research on recent road building. The following roads have been built (rather opened) in the last 18 months and I have looked at their locations using MultiMap - who use three different data providers for maps at different resolutions, including our friends TeleAtlas.

M6 Toll - opened January 2004, present on Multimap at 1:100000 scale (Bartholomew data), absent on 1:50000 scale (TeleAtlas) , absent on 1:25000 (Ordnance Survey)

A6 Bypass at Rothwell/Desborough - opened August 2003, present at 1:100000 as a dashed line, absent in TeleAtlas and OS scales.

A6 Bypass at Great Glen - opened February 2003, present at 1:100000, absent at other scales.

A43 / M40 interchange - opened September 2002, present at 1:100000 and at 1:50000 (TeleAtlas), absent at 1:25000

So, the most recent of these roads in Multimap's version of TeleAtlas data is from September 2002. All are missing in TTN2. Of course, we do not know how up to date Multimap are with their TeleAtlas data but we do know that TTN2 data does not contain the A43/M40 junction. The date claimed for TTN2 data was "December 2002".

If Multimap are up to date with TeleAtlas we could still be missing roads well over a year old in TTN3! And these are all roads that went through extensive public planning processes, they would not have been a surprise to TeleAtlas. So which of these is in TTN3? Tell me Dave, and I'll shut up - promise Wink

Neil
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chris.hevey
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Here's the thing. TomTom is a very simple piece of software which is the result of the work of a relative handful of folks in Holland. The map data is the product of literally thousands of people's work and the movement, translation and interpretation of terabytes of raw information - dudes running around with lasers and theodelites and GPS thingies to map the roads. They even have to rely on our lovely local Councils for info!

TomTom and TeleAtlas are multi-nationals. The M6 toll is a country lane compared to what's going on in Europe. I can imagine the meeting at TomTom "F*** me! The British have actually built a road! - Let's delay for 6 months" Do me a favour!

The map data is overwhelmingly OK - I do a UK wide job that involves navigating to the most obscure places and TTN2 has already saved me hours of getting-lost-time in the few months I've had it, despite it screwing up a couple of times.

But I know how help the folks out that are raving about the issues in the TTN3 data.

a) If you're driving along the M6 and see a sign saying M6 Toll, it's OK to take it. You all know where it goes, you don't have to do everything TomTom tells you, and it's surprisingly easy to drive along a motorway without GPS guidance. When you get back on the M6, TomTom will forgive you and work things out.

b) (This is particularly handy) When you get to the obscure new estate, stop the car, wind down the window, and ask someone! Works every time!

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Nick412
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

not exactly "Door to Door" navigaion, but hey.........i see your point.!

I dont want to get to the point of asking someone.........when that happens i will find it hard to justify tomtom & all associated cost involved.Laughing Out Loud :D .

Cheers
Nick
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