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Galileo Concession to be Shared!
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Darren
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 29, 2005 11:15 am    Post subject: Galileo Concession to be Shared! Reply with quote

Story courtsey of The Register's Lucy Sherriff.
The administrative body behind the European satellite navigation system, Galileo, has asked the two groups that had been competing to run the system to join forces and handle the project together.

The deal gives the groups, iNavSat and Eurely, the right to operate the satellite network for the next 20 years, and entitles them to pocket any commercial benefits. The two consortiums will now work together over the next six months to hammer out the fine detail of how the multi-billion euro deal will work.

There is an interesting footnote concerning the interoperability of Galileo with the US Navstar service, apparently the good 'ol US has reserved the right to shoot down Galileo SV's if it thinks the system is being used by its enemies!
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nej
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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 9:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I read that on El Reg the other day. I liked the "reserved the right to shoot them down" bit. I kind of read that as "We'll do it anyway and there's sod all you could do about it."
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Darren
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

pocketgpsworld.comThe first piece in the forthcoming European GPS network, Galileo, successfully launched this morning and has just entered a test phase where its on-board instruments are checked and its orbit corrected.

Giove-A was launched from Baikonur Spaceport in Kazahkstan at 0519 UTC
this morning and will be used to test the atomic clocks and other key technologies and equipment required for the 2.3billion Galileo GPS network. It is hoped to bring increased levels of positional accuracy over the existing US Navstar GPS network which was designed over 20 years ago.

Giove-A was built in the UK by Surrey Satellite Technology Ltd and staff monitored the launch from Mission Control in Guildford.
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Scotty306
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

"reserved the right to shoot them down" 8O

Really? When did the US claim ownership of space?!


Also, i asume the two systems are incompatible? These new satellites won't improve coverage for our existing Satnav will they?
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MARViN2003
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:08 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The US Military are like a big kid who let you play with their ball, until they have an argument with you and want it back Laughing Out Loud.

It stems from the fact that the existing GPS system can apparently be 'detuned' to give inaccurate reading on standard GPS units, whilst still giving correct reading to Military systems - in times of conflict.

Quote:
From 'New Scientist'

Double signal
The 30 satellites that will make up the Galileo system will provide two basic services: a free positioning service and a more accurate, encrypted signal that businesses will pay to use. Oosterlinck says the system could be used to help drivers navigate, track shipping and help airline pilots land in thick fog.

Unlike the US system, each Galileo satellite will broadcast signals on at least two frequencies. By receiving more signals, ground-based receivers can correct more accurately for atmospheric disturbances to the signals. This improves the accuracy from the 10 to 20 metres achieved by GPS to around a metre.

Europe and the US are now in negotiations to work out how the two systems can work together. The US say that Galileo's encrypted signal could interfere with their military signal.

Hans Fromm, deputy head of the Navigation Department at the European Space Agency, denies this. "From the technical view, the interference issue is unfounded," he says. Industry experts back this up, saying any interference would so weak as to be unnoticeable.

Denial of service
But the US have another complaint. The US State Department is heading the negotiations with Europe and on 7 March it declared it was opposed to any system that prevented the US from denying positioning services to specific regions of the world in times of crisis.

This can be done with GPS by degrading the signal so that it is too inaccurate to be useful on the ground. The military signal from GPS remains unaltered, but is only available to those with US-approved military receivers.

Galileo has no such option, so the signal would be always on for everyone. The US are now pushing for Europe to introduce ways to block the free Galileo signal if necessary.

Russia has its own satellite positioning system called GLONASS, but according to ESA, "they keep losing satellites" and no longer have full global coverage.


So accuracy within a meter could be possible by 2008!
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gamichea
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 3:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

MARViN2003 wrote:
The US Military are like a big kid who let you play with their ball, until they have an argument with you and want it back Laughing Out Loud.

It stems from the fact that the existing GPS system can apparently be 'detuned' to give inaccurate reading on standard GPS units, whilst still giving correct reading to Military systems - in times of conflict.


IIRC, when I first go into GPS in 1999/2000 it was permanently 'detuned' for standard GPS units and termed "Selective Availability". How grand that sounds Rolling Eyes
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spot
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 9:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi - a dopey question, but I bet several of us wondered! Embarassed

Assuming my TT Go 300 is still in one piece when this new sat network gets going (ha ha) - will my Sat Nav still work off the existing (U.S.) sats, or will they be able to limit their usage and so force us to use the Euro sat network.

And then will I have to "buy a new sat nav device"!? Crying or Very sad

I am not very technically minded, as you might have noticed, so be gentle with me please!

Happy New Year
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neil01
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 28, 2005 10:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rest assured, by the time the network is up and running, just about every piece of hardware we currently own will have been replaced. Posibly even the replacement will have been replaced too!
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spot
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 12:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks - that's what I thought! (but maybe I will keep the original tomtom packaging just in case the Antiques Roadshow is still going..........)
Cheers :P
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Skippy
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Scotty306 wrote:
"reserved the right to shoot them down" 8O Really? When did the US claim ownership of space?!


Ever since they faked that moon landing. Laughing
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DeeInLondon
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 1:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

spot wrote:

Assuming my TT Go 300 is still in one piece when this new sat network gets going (ha ha) - will my Sat Nav still work off the existing (U.S.) sats, or will they be able to limit their usage and so force us to use the Euro sat network.



There is a video you can download and watch about the new system. No sure of the URL now though.

But according to that, instead of there being around 30 satelittes in space transmitting the GPS signal there will be upto 60 with the European system adding their batch so you're much more likely to get a signal no matter where in the world you are since you need 4 for a fix.

The possibilities of the new system are endless, with particular benefit to people who are blind for instance.

Unless you are expecting the roads in Europe to change massively inthe next few years then there is no reason your current system won't be every bit as useful then as it is now, and infact with more chance of getting a GPS signal you should find it even more useful and accurate.


So everyone in the world stands to benefit... except maybe car drivers who are likely to find governments turn to new road pricing schemes using the new system.

I hope the new system will be able to transmit more then just positional data, for instance it would be nice if it could transmit data about traffic in the area surrounding your current position instead of the current system that rely on your unit needing to dial up a number by phone.
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SimonCatlin
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

DeeInLondon wrote:

.... batch so you're much more likely to get a signal no matter where in the world you are since you need 4 for a fix.


Technically 3 gives you a fix (in the x and y plane). 4 gives you horizontal as well (z plane).

Although with SIRF Star III some receivers can utilise 20 channels but you are still + or - 1 metre even with this.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SimonCatlin wrote:
Although with SIRF Star III some receivers can utilise 20 channels but you are still + or - 1 metre even with this.

And any mention of 20 or 30 channels is pure marketing BS as it's impossible to see more than 12 from any one point on earth!
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cheshire61
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sad just bought a satnav 520 just wondered is this going to be obselete
because of this new satalite or will the yanks come up with a better gps one hope i have not wasted my money looks a good satnav the 520 so far not got lost and have downloaded the speed cameras works great
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cheshire61
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PostPosted: Thu Dec 29, 2005 2:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

cheshire61 wrote:
Sad just bought a satnav 520 just wondered is this going to be obselete
because of this new satalite or will the yanks come up with a better gps one hope i have not wasted my money looks a good satnav the 520 so far not got lost and have downloaded the speed cameras works great
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