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Camper 770LMT-D: Diacritical mark POI problem
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:05 pm    Post subject: Camper 770LMT-D: Diacritical mark POI problem Reply with quote

This is going to be a strange post as I have a problem and working on it but I'm doing it the forum so people can chip if they have an answer before I do! Hope this makes sense! Thumbs Up

Right the problem is that I'm using a Mac to create master POI files which I want to convert to use on a Garmin 770LMT-D. Unfortunately a lot of the POIs have descriptions that contain diacritical marks (i.e. accents on letters, e.g. àáèéç etc.).

I'm using Mac MS Excel to create the .xlsx master file and then convert it to .csc file. I use GPSBabel which was good when I was using the Mac to create TomTom POIs with diacritical marks. I know that Macs have a problem with UTF-8 character set so this could be the issue.

To recap: Diacritical marks not display correctly in custom POI on Garmin:
1. I'm using a Mac
2. Using Mac MS Excel to create original master file (.xlsx) and then .csv file.
3. Using GPSBabel.

My current line of investigation is to see if GPSBabel can create .gpx files, from Mac .csv files, which can be correctly processed by POI Loader into a .gpi file.

Regards,
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Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 23, 2017 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Update:

I spent a lot of time searching for answer as to whether Garmin PNDs can use diacritical marks in custom POIs. I did manage to get my Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D to save a favourite with diacritical marks in its name (using the French keyboard) but you can't search for it unless you use the exact characters, so that wasn't much of a success!

I also contacted Garmin Support and to cut a long discussion short, the answer is:

You cannot (currently) use diacritical marks in custom POIs in Garmin PNDs.

Garmin Support suggested that I submit a request for support of diacritical marks in custom POIs in Garmin products to the Garmin design team, which I have done, so we'll have to wait and see whether Garmin do add the support of diacritical marks in custom POIs in the future.

Regards,
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Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
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PhilHornby
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Privateer wrote:
I also contacted Garmin Support and to cut a long discussion short, the answer is:

You cannot (currently) use diacritical marks in custom POIs in Garmin PNDs.


Psst - tell 'em from me, you can!



Custom Poi displayed on an olde-worlde Garmin Nüvi 715. Created via .GPX input on a Windows 10 PC. Encoding of .GPX file set to "Windows-1252", oddball characters selected from 'charmap', using font as 'Western', Character Set as 'Windows: Western'.

Custom POI Editor used was the late, great, GeePeeEx Editor Cool
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So can you search for them? Of so, how? We can put them in, but not search.
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PhilHornby
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
So can you search for them? Of so, how? We can put them in, but not search.

Privateer wrote:
To recap: Diacritical marks not display correctly in custom POI on Garmin:


That was the point I was answering...
...but to answer your question, no Search doesn't appear to work (at least not on the Nüvi 715).

(The keyboard on this model has an "ALT" button that lets you access some of the characters.)

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MaFt
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 12:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Copy and paste the CSV into something like this: https://www.miniwebtool.com/remove-accent/

MaFt
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

But that defeats the reason for wanting them in there in the first place Rolling Eyes
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi PhilHornby and MaFt,

I appreciate your replies but it not what I want. Let me recap:

1. Whilst I can live without diacritical marks (accents) on letters in my custom POIs I would like to use them for POIs where the name of the physical location has diacritical marks.

2. I have been able to add diacritical marks to my favourites but that's using the French keyboard.

3. I want to be able to take the .gpx and/or .csv and process them via POI Loader so that the diacritical marks are still there in the .gpi file.

4. My primary computer is a Mac and not a Windows. I would like a solution that is easy for both Mac and Windows.

5. I want to create the POIs with diacritical marks but search for them using the English keyboard without using diacritical marks. Say the POI is "Café" I want to be able to search for that using "cafe" - i.e. regardless of either case or diacritical marks.

Regards,
_________________
Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think you are on a hiding to nothing unless you can change the Garmin and/or the POI Loader software to 'recognise' the 'non standard' English characters. It strikes me that you would also be on a hiding to nothing trying to get that done.
I think it matters not whether you are using Windows or a Mac to process the GPX/CSV file, or are you telling us that it can be done in Windows and not a Mac?

You would need a patch into the Garmin software that would turn the English into foreign stuff before offering the result the search routine. But anyway, how would it know which particular foreign version of an 'e' that you actually wanted?
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PhilHornby
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 26, 2017 5:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Privateer wrote:
1. Whilst I can live without diacritical marks (accents) on letters in my custom POIs I would like to use them for POIs where the name of the physical location has diacritical marks.

2. I have been able to add diacritical marks to my favourites but that's using the French keyboard.

3. I want to be able to take the .gpx and/or .csv and process them via POI Loader so that the diacritical marks are still there in the .gpi file.

4. My primary computer is a Mac and not a Windows. I would like a solution that is easy for both Mac and Windows.

5. I want to create the POIs with diacritical marks but search for them using the English keyboard without using diacritical marks. Say the POI is "Café" I want to be able to search for that using "cafe" - i.e. regardless of either case or diacritical marks.



  1. That's definitely do-able - as far as I can tell, those characters are allowed in any .GPI text field, including the name. (As per the screenshot I posted)
  2. It also works (at least on the Nüvi 715), using the "ALT" keyboard key.
  3. As 1) above, as least using XML (i.e. GPX) input. The MAC version of POILoader might implement things differently, to the Windows version.
  4. Can't help with Apple stuff - I learned my IT skills in the commercial world.
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Wed Dec 27, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
I think you are on a hiding to nothing unless you can change the Garmin and/or the POI Loader software to 'recognise' the 'non standard' English characters.

Agree. Hence my request to Garmin.

M8TJT wrote:
It strikes me that you would also be on a hiding to nothing trying to get that done.

Also agree. However if you don't ask you don't get so there may be a very slim chance.

M8TJT wrote:
I think it matters not whether you are using Windows or a Mac to process the GPX/CSV file, or are you telling us that it can be done in Windows and not a Mac?

No, it was to ask Garmin to allow both Windows and Mac users to be able to do this. What I have found is that whilst files created via Windows computers seem OK, Mac users have to experiment to get the right encoding, i.e. unfortunately UTF-8 in Mac isn't identical to UFT-8 Windows!

M8TJT wrote:
You would need a patch into the Garmin software that would turn the English into foreign stuff before offering the result the search routine.

This is one of the things that TomTom SatNavs (well those that accepted custom POIs) did well. I guess that when you use the English keyboard it has a look-up table for every letter that could have a diacritical mark so it would substitute accordingly and display text with diacritical marks even if you didn't use them in the search text.

M8TJT wrote:
But anyway, how would it know which particular foreign version of an 'e' that you actually wanted?

It doesn't need to know. If the search routine substitutes those special characters (i.e. ones with diacritical marks) with their regular counterparts (ones without diacritical marks).

I don't know how the Garmin search routine works, but if it has a setting for Language base, then setting that to default (i.e. language-neutral) would help.

Regards,
_________________
Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D
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PhilHornby
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 1:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Privateer wrote:
What I have found is that whilst files created via Windows computers seem OK, Mac users have to experiment to get the right encoding, i.e. unfortunately UTF-8 in Mac isn't identical to UFT-8 Windows!

Are you certain you need to go down the UTF-8 encoding route? There are a lot of accented and 'special' characters available in the 8-bit "Windows-1252/ISO-8859-1" sets.

On Windows, POILoader is happy to read a CSV file containing 8 bit characters and pass them through to the .GPI file. By and large, the Nüvi will be happy with that .GPI file and will display the characters.

On Windows at least, POILoader will not accept a UTF-8 encoded CSV file as input. It will accept a UTF-8 encoded GPX file, but creating one involves two steps.

Firstly, there is the obvious encoding="UTF-8" statement in the .GPX file header - but you probably need to add the so-called BOM (byte-order-mark) to the beginning of the file. (The Wikipedia article declares that this is not necessary, but that has not been my experience.)

There is a further complication that come into play for MAC users, in this regard - whereas Windows has always run on 'little-Endian' hardware, Apple's history goes back to Motorola hardware, which was 'big-endian'. I believe there are still some vestiges of this within today's Apple implementations. I can't state authoritatively that this is the case, but it is an area I would investigate...

(I came upon this interesting UTF-8 related web-site, which may be useful.)


Last edited by PhilHornby on Tue Jan 02, 2018 3:49 pm; edited 1 time in total
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M8TJT
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

As I understand it, you can get the 'special' characters into the Garmin and they will display in the POI list, but you can't easily search for them as you can't easily get the 'special' characters into the search field. Is this correct Robert?
That's what I have found during my experiments anyway.
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

PhilHornby wrote:
Are you certain you need to go down the UTF-8 encoding route? There are a lot of accented and 'special' characters available in the 8-bit "Windows-1252/ISO-8859-1" sets.

No I'm not certain, I've tried to use UTF-8 in order to use online convertors (which all seem to be Windows based). I've come across Windows-1252/ISO-8859-1, however Mac (of course) doesn't seem to have an exquivelent. There's "Western (Mac OS Roman)" but that doesn't seem to be quite the same as "Windows-1252/ISO-8859-1".

PhilHornby wrote:
On Windows at least, POILoader will not accept a UTF-8 encoded CSV file as input. It will accept a UTF-8 encoded GPX file, but creating one involves two steps.

Firstly, there is the obvious encoding="UTF-8" statement in the .GPX file header - but you probably need to add the so-called BOM (byte-order-mark) to the beginning of the file. (The Wikipedia article declares that this is not necessary, but that has not been my experience.)

Ah, I've left BOM alone as I'd also read that Wiki article.

I've kept to four column .csv (Longitude,Latitude,Name,Phone) as I don't understand the Garmin .gpx schema well enough to write it. GPX would be preferable but I'm not aware of any Mac software that can convert multiple column .csv to .GPX.

PhilHornby wrote:
There is a further complication that come into play for MAC users, in this regard - whereas Windows as always run on 'little-Endian' hardware, Apple's history goes back to Motorola hardware, which was 'big-endian'. I believe there are still some vestiges of this within today's Apple implementations. I can't state authoritatively that this is the case, but it is an area I would investigate...

(I came upon this interesting UTF-8 related web-site, which may be useful.)

Yes there is a historical reason as to why Mac and Windows have encoding differences but to be honest I've never investigated too much as I've want a quick solution and I don't think that the information would have given me a solution - if there was a solution others would have done it already. The UTF-8 website looks useful. Thanks for that.

Regards,
_________________
Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D
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Privateer
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 02, 2018 12:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

M8TJT wrote:
As I understand it, you can get the 'special' characters into the Garmin and they will display in the POI list, but you can't easily search for them as you can't easily get the 'special' characters into the search field. Is this correct Robert?

That is correct, but only for favourites and not for custom POIs, from my experiments. *1

You need to change the keyboard on the Garmin to one that has diacritical marks (e.g. the French keyboard). This allows you to use diacritical marks on letters so you can type words like "Café". However the Garmin search routine does not appear to be language-neutral so using the English keyboard you can't type "cafe" to find "Café", Which detracts from trying to force diacritical marks into the Garmin. *2

For the time being, I will continue to use diacritical marks in my master list (for accuracy of the POI description and name) and also because I can create TomTom .OV2 files for my legacy iOS app that not only correctly shows the accents but it allows you to search for them in a language-neutral way.

Garmin needs to do the following:

1. Allow POI Loader (both Mac and Windows) to take .csv files with diametrical marks and process them into the .gpi file.

2. Change the search routine on the Garmin SatNav units themselves to have language-neutral search so that typing "cafe" finds "Café".


Notes

*1. The next step (which I haven't done) is to examine the favourites .gpx file with the forced diacritical marks and create a test input .gpx files with several POIs that contain diacritical marks and then pass that through the POI Loader to see what happens. Whilst it'd be an interesting experiment on the Mac it is worthless in real life as my master list is in an Excel (Mac) .xlsx spreadsheet which has to be converted to .csv for the POI Loader. Unlike the Windows platform, I have found no .gpx generators on the Mac platform that work. As my master list is regularly updated I cannot manually code .gpx file every time I update my master list.

*2. I'm hoping that diacritical marks that I write with Mac Safari are now readable, since I tweaked the settings - so "Café" should be readable and not contain some meaningless symbol. Wink

Regards,
_________________
Robert.
iPhone 6s Plus, iOS 14.0.1: iOS CamerAlert v2.0.7
TomTom GO Mobile iOS 2.3.1; TomTom (UK & ROI and Europe) iOS apps v1.29
Garmin Camper 770 LMT-D
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