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Speed camera nabs 23,500 drivers in 14 days
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Darren
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 5:40 pm    Post subject: Speed camera nabs 23,500 drivers in 14 days Reply with quote

pocketgpsworld.comStory courtesy of the Telegraph. A speed camera, installed in a 30mph limit in Whitely, Hampshire caught 23,500 drivers in two weeks.

That means this camera has caught more than one driver a minute breaking the speed limit and assuming an average fine of £60 that is £1.4million in fines.

A spokesman from Hampshire's Safer Roads Partnership said "Motorists should be aware that police can do random checks at any time and so should stick to speed limits".

Clearly any road that suffers this level of abuse of the limits needs targeting but it is also the case that investigation of why it is so prevalent also needs investigation. Are there other factors at play here, does the road need re-designing to re-inforce the 30 limit perhaps?


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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 6:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hi Darren, I don't think it is that unusual to be honest. I can think of most roads I drive that are supposed to be 30 and people exceed it.
I do 30, and the cars in front disappear into the sunset. I do 30 and cars behind are either riding my bumper or trying to get past.

Mandeville Road, Northolt. the 30mph dot matrix sign may as well be permanently switched on. It flashes every car going past it. I've gone past at 30mph and it hasn't flashed, go past at 32 and it does.

Eastcote lane, Northolt, outside of the school. Same thing.
Llanharan, Mid Glam, 30mph dot matrix sign outside the school, flashes away nearly all the time.

I realise they are probably set closer to the limit (or even dead on) than what speedcams go at.
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 7:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is entirely possible that the real problem here is that the speed limit has been set at an unnecessarily low level.

Research shows that 85% of drivers will drive at a speed which they feel to be safe for a given road, regardless of the posted speed limit. In fact, this has been enshrined in American legislation, and the 85th percentile is used to set the speed limit.

For a camera to have caught quite so many drivers in such a short time period it seems unlikely that the speed limit has been set correctly.

Is there anybody here who knows this village? Has there been a particularly bad accident record there?

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mrg2003
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Speed camera nabs 23,500 drivers in 14 days Reply with quote

[quote]A spokesman from Hampshire's Safer Roads Partnership said "Motorists should be aware that police can do random checks at any time and so should stick to speed limits"[/quote]
I agree entirely.

If you can't to the time, don't do the crime. A pedestrian is much more likely to survive a collision below 30 than above.

I do my racing on circuits designed for speed in an appropriate type of car, and keep to the limits on the public roads.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Philip wrote:
For a camera to have caught quite so many drivers in such a short time period it seems unlikely that the speed limit has been set correctly.

Quite, that is the issue that needs investigation here.
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Darren
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Speed camera nabs 23,500 drivers in 14 days Reply with quote

mrg2003 wrote:
I agree entirely.

If you can't to the time, don't do the crime. A pedestrian is much more likely to survive a collision below 30 than above.

I do my racing on circuits designed for speed in an appropriate type of car, and keep to the limits on the public roads.

I'm sorry but you miss the point entirely. If you really believe the hype about casualties then the ultimate solution is we all walk. Despite the statistics you don't know by what margin the speed limit was exceeded?

The clear issue here is that 23,000 motorists exceeded the limit which suggest there is a bigger issue. Perhaps the road needs to be re-designed to cause motorists to drive slower, perhaps it needs to be signed more clearly?

Either way, such comments do not help the debate. The average motorist is no racer, 36 in a 30 is illegal but does not make a driver a racer. Education and good designcan provide many of the answers here.
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Speed camera nabs 23,500 drivers in 14 days Reply with quote

mrg2003 wrote:
A pedestrian is much more likely to survive a collision below 30 than above.
Yes, but isn't it better trying to avoid hitting the pedestrian in the first place?!

I'm not being totally trite - surely it's more important to train and educate motorists to drive responsibly. Perhaps they would be better spending their time observing, and responding to, the environment outside their car rather than constantly studying their speedometer in case they might be doing 31 in a 30?

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Darren
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

And given the statistics rarely show a reduction in the KSI rate where a camera is installed the cold fact is that this serves only to criminalise 23,000 drivers.

Let's see if we can find out what the KSI rate was before the camera was installed. Is there a real safety issue or is it just another revenue generator?
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 9:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

In fairness when you posted this up Darren you didn't put the part in that said.

The device was fitted by Winchester City Council after residents complained that cars were driving too fast.

If itís a 30mph limit that normally means it a built up area where pedestrian are walking with maybe young children who not always look before crossing a road. Just remember this is the residents that are asking for some sort of help in slowing traffic down, if motorist still want to speed with total disregards to pedestrian trying to make there way then sorry you should be fined. A £60 fine and a few points is nothing compared to killing or hurting someone just because you want to get A and B as quick as possible, myself I drive, cycle and walk and I think it would be good and a shock for some motorist to give up there cars for a few days and see it from a pedestrian, cyclist point view trying to make your way when you have a car drive hurtling up towards you at speed, and what I say now I think would go for most mumís and dadís if a car drive hit you partner or god forbid your child because they where speeding the last thing they would have to worry about is the poxy fine and points that they would get. Motorist are not adapting to road conditions or the surrounding they rely on to much car safety like ABS and so on to stop them in an emergence all the safety items in the world fitted to a car wonít tell you when a pedestrian or a child will run out on to the road without looking.
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well checking out Yew Tree Drive, Whitely in Google Maps one has to wonder why it is posted at 30.

Google maps page

If you check out the satellite view you will see a road that to all intents and purposes is a tree lined country lane. There are no residents on the road itself, just on the side roads.

Obviously I dont have the local knowledge about facilities or other reasons that the speed limit is 30, but I would be surprised if a stranger entering that road would think the limit would be that low.
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Sean16v
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I see what you mean Mike but the residents that live within the surround roads may have trouble turning on to Yew Tree Drive or turning into there roads because of the speeding cars so in the end they have no chose to pullout in front of someone or wait for someone to let them in/out which doesnít happen often these days, and if any driver is unsure of the limit then do 30mph if it was more it would be signed posted. I live in a 20mph zone and we had one of those signs posting what speed drivers where doing down my road it wasn't a surprise to see it flash up at 40 plus mph on more than one occasion at least every day yet when you ask them to slow down your meet with verbal abuse on why they should. Motorist have brought it on to themselves if people didnít speed others wouldnít find a way of making a revenue from it.
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PostPosted: Sun May 10, 2009 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So it's down to residents (who don't even live on the road concerned) complaining....

Isn't it still a requirement that there needs to be a certain number of KSI's before a camera position is agreed?

As for the "if you can't stand the time, don't do the crime" argument... If it is accepted that there are good laws and there are bad laws, then surely you must accept that sometimes speed limits are simply set WRONG? (could be too low OR too high)
I was interested in the comment about limits being set in America according to average driving habits - any more info on that?

There are several examples in the UK where a law is changed simply because it is being completely ignored, and to leave it on the statute books would tend to bring ALL law into disrepute (Portable FM transmitters is one I can think of...)
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 1:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I copied this from the Liz Leffman and the Liberal Democrats website

23,532 speed offences logged in Whiteley in two weeks
5.13.00pm BST (GMT +0100) Mon 4th May 2009

Liz Leffman, Prospective Lib Dem MP for Meon Valley, is shocked to have learned that in a two week period at the end of March 2009, a vehicle activated speed detector erected by Winchester City Council on Yew Tree Drive in Whiteley logged 23,530 instances of speeding traffic.

The speed detector was requested by Lib Dem councillor for Whiteley Vivian Achwal, because she was so concerned about traffic on the main road near Whiteley Primary School. The detector was erected on the first lamp post after the turn into Yew Tree Drive from Rookery Avenue, close to the place where children cross the road every day on their way to and from school, and was active 24 hours a day.

Lib Dems in Whiteley have for many years been campaigning for a proper crossing on Yew Tree Drive at the point where the speed detector was erected. But Hampshire County Council have refused, claiming that traffic numbers are not high enough to merit the expenditure.

"Hampshire County Council have simply ignored the reality in Whiteley, which is that every day, children's lives are at risk from speeding traffic as they go to and from school" said Liz Leffman.

County Council candidate Kairen Goves said "Now we have the hard evidence, we are challenging the County Council to review their previous decision. Yew Tree Drive is an accident waiting to happen. Our children's lives are surely worth the cost of a crossing"

Winchester City Council said that the number of times that the detector was triggered was " remarkably high considering its location" and have contacted the police to see if they will consider taking some enforcement action.

Liz Leffman has written to Hampshire County Council to ask them to reconsider their decision.
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mikealder
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 6:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Reading that again it looks like this was a basic detector rather than speed camera? lets face it speed cameras are not attached to lamp posts.

As for the statistics and description of the location I would say there is more than good reason to do something on that stretch of road.

A local (to me) area in front of a school has recently dropped the speed to 20MPH and redesigned the road in such a way that people dont speed through the section - its not difficult, and it doesn't involve using a camera - Mike
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Darren
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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2009 7:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Indeed, that would suggest this was just a detector, i.e. not one with any enforcement aspects.

The original story did reference the council but as it also referenced the local Safety Cam Partnership and so I thought it was an enforcement camera.

Still the main point remains, that there is an issue with the road itself if that many drivers exceed the limit.
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